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It's sad to see that this is turning into millennial-bashing, both from the disclaimer the author had to insert at the top and the first few comments here on HN

It's sad to see that this is turning into millennial-bashing, both from the disclaimer the author had to insert at the top and the first few comments here on HN. The interns learned a valuable lesson about the way the world works: there are people who both possess authority and value customs like placing particular styles of cloth on your feet; and if you decide to work for such people and don't show them the proper deference, you might get fired. Sometimes, you are in a financial and/or life situation where you have to shut up and take it. But it's asinine to trumpet this as millennial entitlement. It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are. Some of these questions are about trivial things, like an innocuous dress code. Other questions are about incredibly meaningful things, like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no idea whether that was the case here). If your only response to an office custom being questioned is to tout your authority and sneer at the insolence of the youth these days, it's clearly not the youth that believe they're entitled.

MustardTiger 10y ago
>It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are No, it isn't. They never asked about it at all, that was very much part of the point the author was making. They signed a petition demanding a change to the dress code. That is absolutely entitlement, and it is beyond naive to believe this is not more common in this generation. The generation demanding everything change so they never have to hear an opinion they disagree with. >like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no idea whether that was the case here) You do have an idea if you simply read the article. But no, lets try to shoehorn more identity politics in, we can never have enough!
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  Why keep a policy that you can't motivate?
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    I have no idea what you are asking.
    - KirinDave 10y ago
      What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? These employees didn't have a functional dress code and it didn't seem to be in service of a brand. They were petitioning to wear reasonable footwear. And whole you may shy from such discussions, dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided. It is not a new phenomenon.
      - smsm42 10y ago
        Why wear clothes at all? I mean when it's cold outside, fine, but indoors or in countries with comfortable temperatures... I can get a loin cloth, or like these guys[1] (may be NSFW) you know, hygiene and stuff, but beyond that? That's a cultural thing. We live in a culture. Some parts of the culture pay more attention to stuff we cover ourselves with that others. Maybe in some places what tattoo you are wearing on your cheek is much more important than what cloth you are wearing on your feet, but in many Western workplaces that's how the culture works. Substantiating culture from rational principles is very hard (why is it ok for Western people to eat chicken but weird to eat parrot? Because. Why it's ok to women to wear pants but weird for a man to wear a skirt? Because. Why we use zippers and not codpieces, why we once wore wigs and hats and now we rarely do so? Because!). That doesn't mean culture doesn't exist or it is just stupid (unless you think whole life is stupid - which is a valid approach, but then there's no reason to single out this part of it ;). And for people that probably heard words like "diversity" and "tolerance" every day in the school, it should not be hard to understand the value of not dismissing other's culture as "this is just a stupid prejudice" and not approaching it with the posture of "now I'll show you how to do things properly". If a western person did it to a non-western person, they themselves would call it "cultural imperialism" or something like that. But they did exactly the same and don't even have enough self-reflection to realize that. That's a major failure of their education, and hopefully this life lesson would work to correct it at least partially. > It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided It is also worth noting how some people think if 10 people do same thing it is somehow better than one people doing the thing - somehow "collective" is better than individual. [1] https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg
trhway 10y ago
> But it's asinine to trumpet this as millennial entitlement. It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are. from point of view of more conservative generations or people from more conservative backgrounds the mere asking of such questions may seem like the "millennial entitlement" (a part of the traditionally more known as "questioning the authority" behavior exhibited by young generations through the history)
- mcphage 10y ago
  > the mere asking of such questions may seem like the "millennial entitlement" Being able to question fairly trivial things like dress codes seems a perfectly reasonable level of entitlement.
  - jeffdavis 10y ago
    Depends on how it's done. If they had made a casual inquiry and asked sincere questions in an attempt to learn why attire is important, they would have gotten sincere answers. But a petition is a way to force an answer to a specific request on your terms, without leaving much room to listen and learn. And dress is not trivial. It may take more than a one-sentence explanation to describe why. Consider, for a moment, that people are not robots and changing attire may have real impact on how people behave and interact in a social environment like business.
    - mcphage 10y ago
      > Consider, for a moment, that people are not robots and changing attire may have real impact on how people behave and interact in a social environment like business. It might, certainly. But on the other hand, there are countless other issues that could be brought up—open office plans, office fraternization, expectations of late night email responses, working hours, salary, and so on—that are directly about how people behave and interact, or do business, that something like dress codes that reach no further than "may have a real impact" kinda fade in importance.
sago 10y ago
According to the original letter, the writer and other interns did ask their individual managers, and were told no, without repercussion. Their response was to band together and create a petition to 'argue' their point. The petition, not their discussions with the manager, got them fired. Taking collective action to try and overturn your manager's decision to enforce pre-existing and clear company rules, is pretty entitled. To do that when you're an unpaid intern, suggests a high degree of entitlement to me. Whether that justifies millennial bashing, or whether all generations are like that at 18, is another matter.
- foota 10y ago
  Why does the fact that they're unpaid interns matter?
  - sago 10y ago
    Because they do not provide significant value to the company that isn't fungible. They learned how valuable they were to the company: less value than the hassle of dealing with their petition. They dramatically overrated their value, what the company thought it was already giving them, and what they deserved as a result. Entitlement can mean various things, but in terms of acting entitled in the workplace, it's a pretty good example.
  - smsm42 10y ago
    Unpaid internship usually means they need the job more than the job needs them. This is not the best situation to be in, for sure, but that's the power dynamics usually.
    - foota 10y ago
      While it's true that in the short term the position benefits the intern more, I think that internships can be a significant part of an effective college grad recruiting program. Not just directly, but from mindshare and word of mouth.
      - 10y ago
jeffdavis 10y ago
"possess authority and value customs like placing particular styles of cloth on your feet" My guess is that everyone has standards for politeness and they'd be annoyed when those standards are violated. But for some reason, polite and respectful dress is considered somehow more arbitrary than, say, polite and respectful speech.
smsm42 10y ago
I think more important lesson is not in the what but in the how. And that IMHO might be millennial problem. Or maybe just young problem, which I guess in this case is the same. > It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are Ah, but that's the point! The weren't asking - they were telling that this must change, because so many of us tell you so! You don't need signatures to ask a question. You need signatures to pressure. > how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers I seriously doubt this is the case for "women". Some women, of course, can't stand wearing heels - just as some men can't stand wearing suits - and they choose careers where it is not customary or required. But generalizing on all women doesn't seem to be prudent. I am sure there are a lot of very motivated and driven women who won't let such things as heels derail their chosen career. > If your only response to an office custom being questioned is to tout your authority and sneer at the insolence If you, as an intern, question the authority of the company's management, you probably will be shown the door. There's being right, and there's being right in the right way. Hierarchies exist for reason, relationship and organizational culture are important, and the probability of an intern being so right that the company must abandon their culture and listen to the intern over the management is in general much less than the probability the intern is too green and doesn't understand a lot of things. Thus I would take an an important lesson here is that it's important not only to be right, but also to present it to other people in ways that they will be willing to accept it and that will be beneficial to them too. If the intern's proposal is beneficial for the firm, the the firm's stakeholders should be co-opted, not bashed over the head with signatures. If it is only beneficial for the interns themselves - one would be asking, why the management should care?

MustardTiger 10y ago

>It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are No, it isn't. They never asked about it at all, that was very much part of the point the author was making. They signed a petition demanding a change to the dress code. That is absolutely entitlement, and it is beyond naive to believe this is not more common in this generation. The generation demanding everything change so they never have to hear an opinion they disagree with. >like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no idea whether that was the case here) You do have an idea if you simply read the article. But no, lets try to shoehorn more identity politics in, we can never have enough!

Nullabillity 10y ago
Why keep a policy that you can't motivate?
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  I have no idea what you are asking.
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? These employees didn't have a functional dress code and it didn't seem to be in service of a brand. They were petitioning to wear reasonable footwear. And whole you may shy from such discussions, dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided. It is not a new phenomenon.
    - smsm42 10y ago
      Why wear clothes at all? I mean when it's cold outside, fine, but indoors or in countries with comfortable temperatures... I can get a loin cloth, or like these guys[1] (may be NSFW) you know, hygiene and stuff, but beyond that? That's a cultural thing. We live in a culture. Some parts of the culture pay more attention to stuff we cover ourselves with that others. Maybe in some places what tattoo you are wearing on your cheek is much more important than what cloth you are wearing on your feet, but in many Western workplaces that's how the culture works. Substantiating culture from rational principles is very hard (why is it ok for Western people to eat chicken but weird to eat parrot? Because. Why it's ok to women to wear pants but weird for a man to wear a skirt? Because. Why we use zippers and not codpieces, why we once wore wigs and hats and now we rarely do so? Because!). That doesn't mean culture doesn't exist or it is just stupid (unless you think whole life is stupid - which is a valid approach, but then there's no reason to single out this part of it ;). And for people that probably heard words like "diversity" and "tolerance" every day in the school, it should not be hard to understand the value of not dismissing other's culture as "this is just a stupid prejudice" and not approaching it with the posture of "now I'll show you how to do things properly". If a western person did it to a non-western person, they themselves would call it "cultural imperialism" or something like that. But they did exactly the same and don't even have enough self-reflection to realize that. That's a major failure of their education, and hopefully this life lesson would work to correct it at least partially. > It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided It is also worth noting how some people think if 10 people do same thing it is somehow better than one people doing the thing - somehow "collective" is better than individual. [1] https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg

trhway 10y ago

> But it's asinine to trumpet this as millennial entitlement. It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are. from point of view of more conservative generations or people from more conservative backgrounds the mere asking of such questions may seem like the "millennial entitlement" (a part of the traditionally more known as "questioning the authority" behavior exhibited by young generations through the history)

mcphage 10y ago
> the mere asking of such questions may seem like the "millennial entitlement" Being able to question fairly trivial things like dress codes seems a perfectly reasonable level of entitlement.
- jeffdavis 10y ago
  Depends on how it's done. If they had made a casual inquiry and asked sincere questions in an attempt to learn why attire is important, they would have gotten sincere answers. But a petition is a way to force an answer to a specific request on your terms, without leaving much room to listen and learn. And dress is not trivial. It may take more than a one-sentence explanation to describe why. Consider, for a moment, that people are not robots and changing attire may have real impact on how people behave and interact in a social environment like business.
  - mcphage 10y ago
    > Consider, for a moment, that people are not robots and changing attire may have real impact on how people behave and interact in a social environment like business. It might, certainly. But on the other hand, there are countless other issues that could be brought up—open office plans, office fraternization, expectations of late night email responses, working hours, salary, and so on—that are directly about how people behave and interact, or do business, that something like dress codes that reach no further than "may have a real impact" kinda fade in importance.

sago 10y ago

According to the original letter, the writer and other interns did ask their individual managers, and were told no, without repercussion. Their response was to band together and create a petition to 'argue' their point. The petition, not their discussions with the manager, got them fired. Taking collective action to try and overturn your manager's decision to enforce pre-existing and clear company rules, is pretty entitled. To do that when you're an unpaid intern, suggests a high degree of entitlement to me. Whether that justifies millennial bashing, or whether all generations are like that at 18, is another matter.

foota 10y ago
Why does the fact that they're unpaid interns matter?
- sago 10y ago
  Because they do not provide significant value to the company that isn't fungible. They learned how valuable they were to the company: less value than the hassle of dealing with their petition. They dramatically overrated their value, what the company thought it was already giving them, and what they deserved as a result. Entitlement can mean various things, but in terms of acting entitled in the workplace, it's a pretty good example.
- smsm42 10y ago
  Unpaid internship usually means they need the job more than the job needs them. This is not the best situation to be in, for sure, but that's the power dynamics usually.
  - foota 10y ago
    While it's true that in the short term the position benefits the intern more, I think that internships can be a significant part of an effective college grad recruiting program. Not just directly, but from mindshare and word of mouth.
    - 10y ago

jeffdavis 10y ago

"possess authority and value customs like placing particular styles of cloth on your feet" My guess is that everyone has standards for politeness and they'd be annoyed when those standards are violated. But for some reason, polite and respectful dress is considered somehow more arbitrary than, say, polite and respectful speech.

smsm42 10y ago

I think more important lesson is not in the what but in the how. And that IMHO might be millennial problem. Or maybe just young problem, which I guess in this case is the same. > It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are Ah, but that's the point! The weren't asking - they were telling that this must change, because so many of us tell you so! You don't need signatures to ask a question. You need signatures to pressure. > how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers I seriously doubt this is the case for "women". Some women, of course, can't stand wearing heels - just as some men can't stand wearing suits - and they choose careers where it is not customary or required. But generalizing on all women doesn't seem to be prudent. I am sure there are a lot of very motivated and driven women who won't let such things as heels derail their chosen career. > If your only response to an office custom being questioned is to tout your authority and sneer at the insolence If you, as an intern, question the authority of the company's management, you probably will be shown the door. There's being right, and there's being right in the right way. Hierarchies exist for reason, relationship and organizational culture are important, and the probability of an intern being so right that the company must abandon their culture and listen to the intern over the management is in general much less than the probability the intern is too green and doesn't understand a lot of things. Thus I would take an an important lesson here is that it's important not only to be right, but also to present it to other people in ways that they will be willing to accept it and that will be beneficial to them too. If the intern's proposal is beneficial for the firm, the the firm's stakeholders should be co-opted, not bashed over the head with signatures. If it is only beneficial for the interns themselves - one would be asking, why the management should care?