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> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies tha

by scribu 10y ago

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies that target a global market, then yes, it is that simple. But there is a vast majority of companies that do not belong to that category, yet require software developers. I'm thinking primarily of Spanish software agencies that have other Spanish companies as clients.

charlesdm 10y ago
There's often still significant leeway. I'm based in Belgium - most senior developers probably make between €3-4000/mo (before tax) here. That's for guys in their mid 30s, early 40s. So a bit better than Spain. My cousin's husband owns a small agency (15-20 people) and sells one developer at €2.000 a day on €500k-1m projects. I think on average they're billed out around 150 days a year, so grossing around €300k per developer, per annum. Paying developers more would mean less profits ending up in his pocket.
- ido 10y ago
  I'm surprised Belgium isn't better paid, even in Berlin you'd earn better than that (aside from maybe game-dev) and in western Germany you'll earn better than in Berlin.
  - Zardoz84 10y ago
    As junior, I get 1800€/mo (before taxes). I'm Spanish and I live on Madrid.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Part of that is because employer contributions (tax + social security) are quite high on wages. Total cost to the company is probably double, i.e. €6.5-8k. In addition, income tax is also very high, so employees are left with <2-2.5k after tax on average. There are ways to reduce the tax rate a bit to an acceptable level, but this depends on the goodwill of your employer. Most just don't care, even though it could mean an extra €1,000 - €1,500 in after tax salary for their employees, without increasing cost to the company. You can even ask the tax authority for a free tax ruling, meaning they approve this and can't challenge it later on. I know what I'd do if I wanted to hire great local developers.. starting by offering a salary that is 1/3rd higher of most other local companies probably isn't a bad starting point.
zanny 10y ago
You only "require" the things you can afford. If a company does not have the revenue to afford paying real market rates for developers, they might want a dev, or even need one, but that doesn't mean they can have one any less than a homeless man can have shelter when he needs it but doesn't have the means to afford it. I always hate the mindset that because developers are in demand for some reason lower wages are acceptable. The opposite is true, exclusively, than when developers are in demand you should demand more money, and accept no less. It is extraordinarily rare for a worker to have any leverage over their employer, to such a degree that there is this systemic culture of employers being unable to stomach the concept of a developer being a skilled professional that demands a professional wage above and beyond what someone driving a truck or working in Excel makes.
- pakitan 10y ago
  I think you're missing the point. No one is saying that developers should be ok with getting less money when they can get more. The point is that as an employee, you bring certain value to the company. And that value is often capped not by your skills and productivity but by the type of company you work for. And there are less companies in Europe of the type that can afford to pay very well.

by scribu 10y ago

charlesdm 10y ago

There's often still significant leeway. I'm based in Belgium - most senior developers probably make between €3-4000/mo (before tax) here. That's for guys in their mid 30s, early 40s. So a bit better than Spain. My cousin's husband owns a small agency (15-20 people) and sells one developer at €2.000 a day on €500k-1m projects. I think on average they're billed out around 150 days a year, so grossing around €300k per developer, per annum. Paying developers more would mean less profits ending up in his pocket.

ido 10y ago
I'm surprised Belgium isn't better paid, even in Berlin you'd earn better than that (aside from maybe game-dev) and in western Germany you'll earn better than in Berlin.
- Zardoz84 10y ago
  As junior, I get 1800€/mo (before taxes). I'm Spanish and I live on Madrid.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Part of that is because employer contributions (tax + social security) are quite high on wages. Total cost to the company is probably double, i.e. €6.5-8k. In addition, income tax is also very high, so employees are left with <2-2.5k after tax on average. There are ways to reduce the tax rate a bit to an acceptable level, but this depends on the goodwill of your employer. Most just don't care, even though it could mean an extra €1,000 - €1,500 in after tax salary for their employees, without increasing cost to the company. You can even ask the tax authority for a free tax ruling, meaning they approve this and can't challenge it later on. I know what I'd do if I wanted to hire great local developers.. starting by offering a salary that is 1/3rd higher of most other local companies probably isn't a bad starting point.

zanny 10y ago

You only "require" the things you can afford. If a company does not have the revenue to afford paying real market rates for developers, they might want a dev, or even need one, but that doesn't mean they can have one any less than a homeless man can have shelter when he needs it but doesn't have the means to afford it. I always hate the mindset that because developers are in demand for some reason lower wages are acceptable. The opposite is true, exclusively, than when developers are in demand you should demand more money, and accept no less. It is extraordinarily rare for a worker to have any leverage over their employer, to such a degree that there is this systemic culture of employers being unable to stomach the concept of a developer being a skilled professional that demands a professional wage above and beyond what someone driving a truck or working in Excel makes.

pakitan 10y ago
I think you're missing the point. No one is saying that developers should be ok with getting less money when they can get more. The point is that as an employee, you bring certain value to the company. And that value is often capped not by your skills and productivity but by the type of company you work for. And there are less companies in Europe of the type that can afford to pay very well.