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“I was fired from my internship for proposing a more flexible dress code”
- Overtonwindow 10y agoThat headline defines the younger generation perfectly.
- StavrosK 10y agoMore than that, it defines every younger generation, including yours.
- emmett 10y agoFrom the article: A note about this post, which is being linked to from all over the internet: This situation is not about “young people today.” The letter-writer’s generation is far from the first to bridle at dress codes or misunderstand office culture or start out with little knowledge of how things work in offices. This is about being young and new to the work world, not about what generation they belong to. Most of us made plenty of mistakes when we first started work — I certainly did. So please go a little easier on this person.
- MustardTiger 10y agoSaying "it isn't about this generation" doesn't change the fact that it does sum up this generation very well. The level of entitlement is unreal, with people demanding history classes in universities not teach parts of history that they don't like. There has never before been such wide spread self-importance in any other generation.
- outworlder 10y ago> A note about this post, which is being linked to from all over the internet: This situation is not about “young people today.”
- to3m 10y agoIndeed not. And thus the post is accurate. It has always been accurate, and it will remain accurate for many years to come. Let us hail the poster for his/her perspicacity, today, tomorrow, and yesterday. Their user name may also be relevant. But I'm going to have to sleep on that one. EDIT: The key word is "today" ;) Exercise for the reader - figure out why the grand parent post very obviously and highly deliberately does not mention that.
- jontro 10y agoDid you read the first paragraph?
- meritt 10y ago> And the sign said, "Long-haired freaky people need not apply". So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why The "younger generation" has asked "why?" to stupid rules for a very long time.
- MustardTiger 10y agoThey didn't ask why, they signed a petition.
- meritt 10y agoI agree that the whole notion of petitions being an effective tool is a recent phenomenon but I feel the general premise is the same: The older generations have always criticized the younger generation of refusing to embrace the rules, having it so much easier, being disrespectful, wanting what they haven't earned, etc. Though I do think the advent of upvote/downvote discussion forums has emboldened the attitude of "I can just downvote/ignore/blockout anything to which I do not agree". That's an annoying and recent behavior (which affects us all, not simply the millennials) which really drives me crazy.
- MustardTiger 10y ago>The older generations have always criticized the younger generation of refusing to embrace the rules, having it so much easier, being disrespectful, wanting what they haven't earned, etc. And that's not what is happening here. This is the younger generation criticizing other members of the younger generation for being spoiled, self-absorbed narcissists. I criticize the older generation for making them this way with their helicopter parenting and their special snowflake "everyone wins" nonsense.
- dang 10y agoPerhaps this younger generation really is the worst younger generation ever, but your comments in this thread fuming about it are still lowering the quality of discussion here below acceptable. Please don't do that on HN. If you comment on a common rage inducer, make sure you have something new and interesting to say, and are not just venting with clichés. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
- fffernan 10y agoAwesome let's get back some old school management. Interns need to be put in their place. Give respect... get respect. No Respect... Out the door.
- mashlol 10y agoI disagree. Having interned 6 times at 5 different companies, the best ones by FAR are the ones where interns are treated exactly the same as full-time employees. The reality is that interns are not that far off from the new-grads, why would you treat them any differently? Interns should be treated exactly like a new hire, with the exception of the fact that they are temporary, so obviously you don't have to assign them to long term projects or anything like that.
- crazypyro 10y agoI hope this is a joke. Interns deserve the same respect as full-time employees. Old school management is old school for a reason, not because its been pushed out by less efficient processes...
- yarou 10y agoYet another linkbaity article that delivers no content. Remind me why we need managers again? To provide corporate bs that is far removed from reality? Do they actually believe in the bs they spout? If so, these MBAs and managers are truly sick.
- yarou 10y agoEpic downvotes my managerial friends. How about a response so I can expose your poor reasoning skills and subpar education?
- eridius 10y agoI'm not a manager, but you're being incredibly antagonistic and insulting to a huge amount of people. You're also quite arrogant, and it makes me ashamed to be part of (presumably, given that this is HN) the same profession as you.
- yarou 10y agoSo in other words I have to be a sycophant? Because I don't agree with your (and the vast majority's) viewpoint?
- dang 10y agoYour comments in this thread are breaking the HN guidelines by being uncivil and unsubstantive, as well as complaining about downvotes. Please (re)-read and follow them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html This site is not a vessel to spew rage into, so please don't. It disrespects everyone else (manager or not) to use it that way. Obviously there's quite a spectrum—nearly every possibility that exists—between not doing that and becoming a sycophant, so I'm pretty sure you're ok there.
- outworlder 10y agoYou are being downvoted due to the tone of your message, not exactly the content. You may wish to reword it.
- tdaltonc 10y agoI hope that they take that moxie and go build something great.
- ratsimihah 10y agoI agree and feel like they did the interns a favor letting them go. These kids belong somewhere better. :)
- ryandrake 10y agoThe beach? :-)
- ben_jones 10y ago* 5 days in * "Half of engineering team fired for starting a petition demanding higher class shares in equity compensation. Apparently nobody in management knew of the petition as the letter of notice originated from the email of one of the engineer's mothers and was accidentally logged in a spam folder. Management only found out after engineers failed to show up to work in protest.".
- United857 10y agoI'm guessing this is Wall Street. "dress code" is more or less non-existent in Silicon Valley.
- andylei 10y agothese are the only 2 industries that hire people
- sbov 10y agoYou mostly have a reverse dress code in Silicon Valley. Just start showing up to your job as a Software Engineer at an SV startup in a suit and tie and see how people react. People are quick to judge, even in SV.
- jrnichols 10y agoIn my experience with east coast companies, that's where the dress code nonsense comes from. I had a similar problem - ridiculous dress codes that made no sense at all. I fought it the best that I could. I worked for a defense contractor as part of another business unit, and the dress code policy was basically "match the site that you work at." Except that they were trying to tell me that I had to adhere to their dress code policy anyway. How dare an employee wear a nice pair of shorts during a 110 degree Texas summer day! They tried to tell me the dress code was a safety issue. I balked and pointed out that the Union employees on the production line were wearing jean shorts and t-shirts, so their argument was flat. A manager two levels above me said something about the fact that she said that she was appalled that I would dare show up to work in shorts. I informed her that I worked in the Silicon Valley before, where dress codes like ours were almost non-existent. She said that she was appalled that I would dare show up to work in shorts. This back and forth went on, and they finally just admitted "This is always how we've done it" and there really was no reason whatsoever for the existing dress code. I signed up for the voluntary layoff package and didn't regret it at all. This was in addition to a time where we had to go digging in the library for OSHA lighting standards just to get upper management to tell one supervisor that didn't work in our area to stop flipping on all of the lights when he walked by.... but that's another story. Just about as stupid as most dress codes.
- djsumdog 10y agoThis is being linked everywhere and it smells like total bullshit. First, I thought unpaid internships were illegal in the US now. Wasn't there a court ruling on that a few years back? This seems like it's fiction to bait the millennial haters, "Get of my lawn" crowd. Something sounds very off about it. I call copy-pasta
- x3n0ph3n3 10y agoThere's nothing in that article to indicate it was an unpaid internship.
- mark212 10y agono, unpaid internships are very much alive and well. The federal judiciary uses them extensively, calling them "externs" instead of "interns" and it's up to the law school to give credits for the work. The entertainment industry also has a ton of such positions, usually the first step into studios, production companies, record labels, etc. This sounds like an advertising agency to me.
- vermontdevil 10y agoUnpaid interns are not illegal. It's illegal to use them for work that a paid employee is expected to perform.
- KZeillmann 10y agoUnfortunately, that's what most unpaid internships are like. I know many people who were in internships that weren't just learning experiences.
- brudgers 10y agoI am not a lawyer. My understanding is that unpaid internships associated with an academic program of study are legal. What is illegal is an unpaid internship not associated with formal education, e.g. an unpaid internship for a recent college graduate. In many disciplines, paid student internships are highly coveted and many available student internships are unpaid. Social work comes to mind.
- jayess 10y agoAlmost feels like a non-US company. Or a law firm.
- MWil 10y agoWhy do you feel like that? This sounds like it could be any and every company to me.
- United857 10y agoDoesn't sound like my current employer (well known Silicon Valley tech firm) We have internal groups for feedback and discussion, suggestions, and constructive criticism on almost everything. Of course, being civil and respectful still applies but it seems the OP was, too.
- gravypod 10y agoI wouldn't say the Valley is a good sample set for the United State's business and management practices.
- meddlepal 10y agoSucks it had to end that way, but an important lesson to learn now rather. You CAN negotiate just about anything but you need to have the political capital to spend. Knowing when to pick your battles and which ones you can win is also an important life lesson.
- pmiller2 10y agoI agree 100%. This is why I say "Yes" to every single meeting request and mostly don't question the way things are done for the first few months of any new job. You have to get established before you can even hope to influence how things are done. I do feel that firing the lot of them was really an overreaction. What they should have done was treated it as a teachable moment and explained the situation and why their response was exactly the wrong thing to do. On the other hand, in their place, I'm not sure I'd want to work for someplace that would fire a whole group of people for something so small. As another comment puts it, the best places to work are those that treat interns the same as other junior employees.
- jeffdavis 10y agoIt may have been an overreaction in the abstract, but they are trying to run a business. If things like this had been going on for a while, then eventually someone is going to say "this isn't a political campaign, it's a business, and these interns are in the way". You can't give due process and full consideration to every inane idea. The business will come to a standstill.
- cloakandswagger 10y agoWhen you're an intern you're basically a guest. Imagine showing up to a dinner party and trying to create a lobby of other guests that don't want to take their shoes off in the house. The entitlement of the interns is astounding.
- computerlab 10y agoActually you're basically an employee with a number of rights and responsibilities.
- kilroy123 10y agoAgreed. Especially if you're a paid intern.
- cloakandswagger 10y agoThen I hope they learned a valuable lesson about political capital in the work place. I'm a full time employee who is well accomplished, and even I still realize that there is a limit to how much influence I can exert over the business before I get the boot.
- addicted 10y agoAnd unless you're forming a union, ganging up with a bunch of peers and going over your managers' heads (especially for something as trivial as a dress code) is probably the worst way to approach such a situation. Approaching HR, or discussing the situation with your manager's manager in a 1 on 1 situation is a much better approach.
- pmiller2 10y ago> Approaching HR.... No! Never talk to HR unless there's a problem with your benefits or something. They are never on your side; they're basically there to protect the company from you. If you ever get into a situation you feel can't be resolved without involving HR, just start looking for a new job.
- vermontdevil 10y agoA petition! And mostly from interns! On a mundane topic about dress codes! Hopefully these interns learned a hard lesson. Talk to the manager first. Find out what flexibility you might get from these clothing code. If none, just go through the summer and leave with some understanding how to deal with this in the future. Petition! Wow.
- sbov 10y agoA petition isn't the best way to go about it, but, a lot of the comments in the OP about this imply a workplace that employees aren't able to bring their concerns up to management. Of course, this was just a dress code, but that works both for and against the reaction to it: it was just a dress code, how will you treat me if I bring up a more serious issue?
- mashlol 10y ago> it was just a dress code, how will you treat me if I bring up a more serious issue? They did bring up the dress code issue to their managers, and it was dismissed. Petitioning it is a level above that, and while I agree that firing them is a bit much, it doesn't mean they can't take feedback necessarily. It sounds like they would still be receptive if you bring up a more serious issue in the proper way (i.e. talking to your manager).
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- cm3 10y agoCouldn't they have just ignored the request like politicians ignore many things asked for by their constituents, or is firing the intern the easiest way because an intern isn't a full-time employee anyway and it will mute the discussion?
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago>A petition isn't the best way to go about it Indeed, the better way is to unionize and bargain. Work contracts and conditions are a matter of haggling between self-interested groups, and while the interns should certainly accept dress codes as conditions of employment now, they should be testing the limits of their bargaining power together to see what they can accomplish for the future.
- njloof 10y agoHaving worked under a union contract for 13 years (as a member of the Animation Guild), I hope that this suggestion gets taken more seriously -- not over dress codes, perhaps, but over issues of workplace safety; and that includes the damage done to young tech workers asked to work 80+ hour weeks for months on end at no cost to the employer over a 40 hour week. It's damaging both physically and mentally, and the companies that do it should know better. (Startups where all parties have honest information about the gamble they're taking are an exception -- and startups are typically not the kinds of places that unionize because the process takes longer than the startup lasts.)
- striking 10y agoThe response here is spot on and, although I wouldn't say that firing every single one of the signatories of the petition was an optimal strategy, it's an understandable one. As an intern, you are lucky to have an opportunity to learn and to prove yourself. Don't squander that opportunity on something as little as a dress code. At least one of you was wise enough not to sign it. I would bet that person's still an intern there.
- foota 10y agoHonestly I wouldn't describe it as quite such an indebted situation, interns are employees who do work for the company. And generally at a cut rate. Edit: full disclosure, I'm an intern
- schneidmaster 10y agoIt's sad to see that this is turning into millennial-bashing, both from the disclaimer the author had to insert at the top and the first few comments here on HN. The interns learned a valuable lesson about the way the world works: there are people who both possess authority and value customs like placing particular styles of cloth on your feet; and if you decide to work for such people and don't show them the proper deference, you might get fired. Sometimes, you are in a financial and/or life situation where you have to shut up and take it. But it's asinine to trumpet this as millennial entitlement. It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are. Some of these questions are about trivial things, like an innocuous dress code. Other questions are about incredibly meaningful things, like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no idea whether that was the case here). If your only response to an office custom being questioned is to tout your authority and sneer at the insolence of the youth these days, it's clearly not the youth that believe they're entitled.
- MustardTiger 10y ago>It's millennials asking perfectly reasonable questions about why certain things are the way they are No, it isn't. They never asked about it at all, that was very much part of the point the author was making. They signed a petition demanding a change to the dress code. That is absolutely entitlement, and it is beyond naive to believe this is not more common in this generation. The generation demanding everything change so they never have to hear an opinion they disagree with. >like how forcing women to wear heels is a product of patriarchal culture and can drive women out of particular careers (disclaimer: I have no idea whether that was the case here) You do have an idea if you simply read the article. But no, lets try to shoehorn more identity politics in, we can never have enough!
- Nullabillity 10y agoWhy keep a policy that you can't motivate?
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- dudul 10y agoEdit - I missed it in the post. I had read a previous version of the letter that didn't include this detail.
- schneidmaster 10y ago> The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument. (from the OP article)
- dogma1138 10y agoI wonder if he or she wondered why that worker was exempt? There are medical conditions that prevent people from wearing leather shoes my partners sister is alergic to pretty much anything and if she wears leather she gets blisters within minutes. There are also people who will not wear leather due to religious and ideological reasons. It seems very childish to start a petition because one employee gets treated differently, that's life your boss can also leave early and take a long lunch maybe it's another petition....
- DarkTree 10y ago>The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument. The answer to your question is right there in the article
- adrusi 10y agoWhat’s done is done. But it would be smart to write a letter to your manager explaining that you’ve learned from the situation and that you appreciate the opportunity they gave you and are sorry that you squandered it. The manager's decision to fire the interns was entirely within their right and the interns should have seen it as a possibility, even if it was a little extreme. But even though it has essentially no bearing on what happened, the interns were in the right. They saw unfairness in the office, confronted the superior about it, and were ignored. Obviously management needs to protect the privacy of the injured employee, but for the sake of dignity and good communication, they could have at least said "that person has a special circumstance which warrants an exception". Their reaction to being ignored violated social conventions, but was a civil, meaningful expression of dissatisfaction. The quote above takes the wrong lesson from this story. It encourages apologizing for organizing the petition, but they absolutely shouldn't apologize, because they were in the right. Unless they want to try to still get a good reference out of this employer (which would be characteristically naive), they have no reason to pander. Instead, they should thank the manager for giving them a reality check about how business operates, while holding firm to their convictions. It would take care to not come across as passive-aggressive, but full repentance would only serve to reinforce the manager's authoritarian tendencies.
- charlesism 10y agoOf course they were right. But it's possible to be right, and still be a pain in the ass. Might make it easier, even.
- TheAdamist 10y agoAn awesome learning experience on where not to work. Internships can be a trial period for both the employer and employee, before leading to a job offer. A bullet dodged I would consider this.
- dahdum 10y agoThey were required to wear suits/blazers with appropriate footwear, and petitioned for no suits with running shoes and sandals... Whole thing sounds fake to me, but incredibly naive if real.
- bpchaps 10y agoMy last job had a relaxed dress policy that allowed people to wear jerseys during football season. Not being a football fan, it felt really oddly unfair in ways I'm not really sure how to describe. I asked them if it was fine to wear a League of Legends jersey, since there was a huge tournament going on in Germany at the same time. The head of HR actually said yes. Wasn't expecting that...
- serge2k 10y agoI abhor policies like this. if the dress code doesn't matter on Friday it just doesn't matter period.
- serge2k 10y agoTalk about dodging a bullet. Is a petition about dress codes whiny and lame, sure. Firing everyone is just a sign of a place that is shitty to work for.
- huffmsa 10y agoBuy better fitting shoes and go see a sweet little Asian/Greek/Ukrainian tailor and get better fitting clothes. Problem solved. And you don't look like some startup schmuck.(I am one but I still suit up often) Edit: also, no job until halfway through college? Kids got bigger problems than shoes.
- Broken_Hippo 10y agoShoes are expensive. Even if you are working a low-paying job along with the unpaid internship, it isn't something that most folks can get when they are just starting out. And even harder to find is a tailor, unless you are in a decent sized city. I had access if actually needed - my mother. My mother did tailoring work off and on to make ends meet, and more later on for herself, excluding bridal shops. Often, there were between zero and one other person in the area doing the work. Most were just to make pants shorter, and few were willing to pay a fair wage for the bigger tailoring.
- huffmsa 10y agoA well fitting pair of shoes can be had for ~$200, or <$120 if you catch a sale. Remember. These are going to be on your feet 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. How much is that worth to you?
- jordigh 10y agoI can't quite tell, but is this about women asking to not wear high heels at the job? If so, the interns were totally in their right. A dress code that demands wearing heels is just a health hazard.
- whack 10y agoWow, I don't know what is more shocking. The fact that the company fired an entire class of interns, or that the advice columnist would side with the managers and chide the interns further. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the interns' proposal... regardless of whether the issue is important enough to start a petition for, it is NEVER ok to fire someone for making a polite and respectful proposal. It is NEVER ok to make someone feel as though they aren't important enough to put forward suggestions. Not only is it morally disgusting, it is organizationally dysfunctional. Teams operate best when every member feels empowered to make suggestions and improve upon the status quo. Teams operate best when those in power don't use their power to intimidate and silence those with less power. If there's one takeaway from all this, it is how dysfunctional the the workplace is for most people, and how important it is to protect yourself by planning ahead. Work your ass off and attend an elite university. Pick a profession that's in-demand, so you'll have plenty of options. Otherwise, you're going to be at the mercy of egomaniacs who have no qualms over firing you at the drop of a hat.
- thiht 10y agoA petition is actually quite agressive, it's the opposite of what I would call "polite". A company is not a democracy.
- MalcolmDiggs 10y agoI understand the manager's frustration. But, I think taking that kind of action sets a dangerous precedent. IMHO, no matter how hard criticism may be to hear, (especially when it is entitled and baseless), you still want to encourage and reward employees and interns any time they go out of their way to try and make the company better, stronger, or a more enjoyable place to work. Not because you agree with what they're proposing, but because you want to encourage the free flow of ideas, and the voicing of concerns. Moreover: When you take on interns, you take on the role of mentor and teacher, for better or worse. I seriously doubt that firing them was the best way to teach them anything.
- syshum 10y agoI get overruled almost on a weekly basis, there are ALOT of things I wish my company would do different, I make these suggestions, I explain my reasoning, and if my boss accepts my reasons and approves the change happens, if not well thats the breaks. He may have a perfectly valid reason why what I suggest will not work for reasons unknown to me that is why he is management and I am not (thank god) I however never circulate a petition to my coworkers asking is they agree with me, or my boss. I never circulate a petition to my coworkers and then present it to my boss as if my work place was some kind of democracy in which is my coworkers all agree then my bosses veto is somehow over ruled. >>>I seriously doubt that firing them was the best way to teach them anything. It should have taught them that when you are a new employee and something you request is denied, that is the end of it. You do not circle the wagons and attempt to force the issue. It should have taught them that the work place is a heirachy with Interns at the bottom, It should have taught them that the real world is a cold ruthless place and your feels are irrelevant.
- mfav 10y agoThere is clearly some unstated circumstances here. One shot in the dark: what if the company was concerned for legal reasons? Since the issue had a connection to a disabled employee, is it possible the company could have fired them to avoid any legal conflicts?
- greenyoda 10y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730
- curiouscat321 10y agoI'm not surprised that the interns got fired. Not because of the topic at hand, but because of the petition. In many ways, an organized petition could be seen as the beginning of union organization. Forget about opinions about unions for a moment. The fact is, most companies do whatever they can to squash a union as early as possible.
- bobthechef 10y agoComedy gold! Mind-boggling! I know employers can be idiotic, I know managers can go on power trips, but this time the interns (not even full-time employees) take the cake. Firing may seem harsh until you look at it from from the manager's POV. You have a bunch of INTERNS coming in, banding up, and trying to essentially coerce the manager into changing a company policy involving dress norms. Not only is dress code not a big issue for a full-time employee (frankly it simplifies getting dressed in the morning), but a couple of interns that will be gone in a couple of months and thus have no shared fate with the company and its employees think they can come in and stage a campus rally to accommodate some petty inconvenience? What utter arrogance! How self-absorbed! How socially challenged! What do you imagine the situation would look like if the manager hadn't fired them after pulling a stunt like that? The interns have already created an awkward situation. Instead of focusing on important things entailed by the purpose of the internship, they decided to start a confrontation over dress code at a company they have no full-time employment at. Asking whether they can wear X for reason Y is acceptable in my mind, but the petition was utterly ridiculous. They pretty much forced the manager's hand by communicating to the manager that they weren't serious about their internship and were going to waste the company's time with frivolous crap. Manager 1, immature interns 0. Perhaps they will eventually learn from this experience, though the stubborn, overconfident tone of the article suggests that it may take some time for the wisdom to sink in. They seem either unwilling to see their error or unable.
- lazylizard 10y agobecause wearing closed shoes makes you more productive than wearing slippers..
- mattieuga 10y agoOne of the commenters said it best: "Oh and also – petitions really aren’t the way things are done. Your workplace isn’t a democracy."