5 ms·

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mo

by muse900 10y ago

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mostly startups and I don't think they have the funds for high end salaries. Except if you are a genius dev and they do need you and you go off and tell them that you want to work from home and live in another Country. I do think though you can get jobs that pay around 2000-3000 euros a month when working remotely, although you have to be very patient as it is some kind of contracting, I mean you won't exactly get all the employment rights you would get if you lived and worked at the country that the company is set.

themartorana 10y ago
2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.
- yulaow 10y ago
  You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.
  - gleenn 10y ago
    I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.
    - yulaow 10y ago
      It depends also on how many hours do you work. Here is pretty common you never go over 38hours week, and if you have to you are compensated very well (1.5~2.5 x normal hour rate). For what I read (but probably there is a little bias in it) in SV there is a partially workcentered style of life when you have to work often >60h with a salaried contract (that, btw, here in EU they do not exist... you are paid with an explicit amount of hours per week in your contract). For example reading the book of Elon Musk it seems he asks constantly for 80/90h/w working also on the weekend. Consider also that. Oh and also you have not to pay anything for healtcare. Basically, as other have already said, if you manage to live in Italy-France-Spain-Portugal-Germany and you are capable to get a remote work for a company in US you will have a incredibly high level of life here.
      - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        Where in Spain you rarely go over 38hr/week or will get decently paid those extra? Man, things must have changed for good in the last 5 years.
      - pkaye 10y ago
        It is not quite bad as it may seen in SV. Most people work 8am to 5pm as gauged by the traffic peak periods. Some start earlier or later but most work around 40 hours. Rarely do you see much traffic or people at work on the weekends. There are certainly places where people work like long hours but one doesn't have to work in those places. There are plenty of other options.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Why make €3,000 when you can easily make €6,000 or €8,000 doing the same work? Unlike a lawyer or a doctor, software engineering can easily be "exported" and done from anywhere in the world. You just need to be _good_.
    - yulaow 10y ago
      I agree. I was just saying that, anyway, with 3000e/m you are not living a bad life, you are instead pretty """rich""" for the standars here. Indeed, if you can, better improve it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sergiosgc 10y ago
    Be mindful that these are pre tax numbers. Add in income tax and social security, and you may chop 50% of that salary off.
  - hibikir 10y ago
    Forget Silicon Valley: It's gotten stupid expensive. The rest of the US, however, has not. I lived in Spain, and moved to the middle of the US, to a city that is about the same size as Valencia: Here, A 4 bedroom house can be had for $200K. Groceries are often cheaper here. Cars are WAY cheaper here, barring a few EU luxury brands. My mother's electricity bill, in an apartment less than half the size of my house, is double mine, so the cost of living is in no way higher than in Spain. The difference is that someone right out of school will make 60K. A completely average senior dev makes 100K. The last time I had local work I had a long term hourly contract, 40/week average, that paid $125 an hour, so 20K a month. Today I make more. So in Spain you have a cost of living that is not really any better, far higher taxes, and pay that would be seen as pretty low for a recent college graduate. Every time I visit, and people ask me why I don't come back, I just go through the economics, and Spaniards quickly agree that I'd have to be insane to come back.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.
  - hospes 10y ago
    €1500 a month is €18K a year, I believe Portugal has about 28% income tax for €7-20K income bracket (which seems very high), so it is roughly about €25K before taxes. And you are saying this is a good as it gets for Software Engineers. I was looking up real estate prices in Lisbon and they seemed pretty high. Per my understanding a lot of people from EU (and some outside of EU) are buying real estate in Portugal and that drives prices up. How do local people buy real estate then? What websites do local people in Portugal use for real estate sales and rentals?
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      We do lease for everything, TV, computer, car, house, vacation, you name it. Before the crisis you could get full credits, with 0% entry on your side. It is also quite common to live with the parents and only leave when you eventually marry, with one salary being used to pay the bank and other running costs. Or you get to buy a little piece of land with an house that gets built with lot of shortcuts along the years. Not sure what the best websites are, as I am living abroad, however many local agencies lack Internet presence. The best sources are ads on local newspapers or word of mouth.
    - jventura 10y ago
      I would advise anyone to stay away from Lisbon regarding housing as there's some kind of bubble over here because of all the tourism. The rest of the country has saner prices, so if you don't really need to live in Lisbon, stay away from it.. Regarding locals, we have a problem which is that when daily workers leave Lisbon, you can only find the tourists looking at each other..
    - paol 10y ago
      Let me correct your numbers. For 1500€ monthly net your employer will pay about 3000€ (~20% income tax + ~30% social security). Multiply by 14 (Yes there are 14 salaries in a year. Don't ask.) and the yearly gross is 42000€. Edit: https://casa.sapo.pt/ https://casa.sapo.pt/ for a look at the real estate market. "para venda" is for sale, "para alugar/aluguer" is for rent.
- casta 10y ago
  I don't know how it works in Spain, but in Italy the cost of an employee is probably much more than his/her salary. The employer gives you a salary, then they have to pay on top of it ~30% of INAIL, INPS etc. (pension, health "insurance" including sick days and so on) and ~10% of TFR (fund you get back at the end of your career.) In the U.S. those are costs you have to remove from your salary. So, 3000 euros a month would be 6000 euros before taxes and if you add the other employer costs, it's about 10000. Now convert it to dollars and you have a 130000 dollars a year.
  - fiddlesticks22 10y ago
    When hiring contractors the company doesn't have to pay any of these things (it's on the contractor). I'm currently contracting for a company in Italy and getting much more than 3k/mo.
    - tigershark 10y ago
      You are speaking about gross salary I guess. I don't really believe that in Italy you can get much more of 3k€ net as a developer. And contracting market in Italy is really fucked up, when I was there on average contractors were paid less than permies.
    - rahkiin 10y ago
      So I guess you do like most freelancers: you don't have insurances nor build any pension? So if you get hit by a car, you have nothing.
      - mantas 10y ago
        Don't know about Italy, but at least in some EU countries, freelancers do build pension. In my country, pension payments is mandatory. As well as insurance for maternity/paternity leave. I've full medical insurance. Well, as full as regular workers. The only difference is I don't have paid sick days and can't claim unemployment benefits. Which kinda makes sense when freelancing. I think I'm eligible for disabled pension though. So if I got hit by car, I'd get free treatment. But no salary compensation. If I was rendered disabled, I may be eligible for disabled benefits based on my previous incomes. Or at least basic disabled benefits.
acchow 10y ago
I suggest taking a look at HN's "Who is Hiring" monthly threads. Try to focus on remote work for Bay Area companies - minimum should be $100k/annually for a good dev.
- alvarosm 10y ago
  That's the thing, you're not getting a "good dev" in Spain. And that's why they cost just 36k or are unemployed.
  - cplanas 10y ago
    Or they leave.
  - collyw 10y ago
    When I have been on the interviewing side, and I see what you are talking about, but there seems to plenty of decent devs when I go to the python meetup group.

by muse900 10y ago

themartorana 10y ago

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

yulaow 10y ago
You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.
- gleenn 10y ago
  I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.
  - yulaow 10y ago
    It depends also on how many hours do you work. Here is pretty common you never go over 38hours week, and if you have to you are compensated very well (1.5~2.5 x normal hour rate). For what I read (but probably there is a little bias in it) in SV there is a partially workcentered style of life when you have to work often >60h with a salaried contract (that, btw, here in EU they do not exist... you are paid with an explicit amount of hours per week in your contract). For example reading the book of Elon Musk it seems he asks constantly for 80/90h/w working also on the weekend. Consider also that. Oh and also you have not to pay anything for healtcare. Basically, as other have already said, if you manage to live in Italy-France-Spain-Portugal-Germany and you are capable to get a remote work for a company in US you will have a incredibly high level of life here.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Where in Spain you rarely go over 38hr/week or will get decently paid those extra? Man, things must have changed for good in the last 5 years.
    - pkaye 10y ago
      It is not quite bad as it may seen in SV. Most people work 8am to 5pm as gauged by the traffic peak periods. Some start earlier or later but most work around 40 hours. Rarely do you see much traffic or people at work on the weekends. There are certainly places where people work like long hours but one doesn't have to work in those places. There are plenty of other options.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Why make €3,000 when you can easily make €6,000 or €8,000 doing the same work? Unlike a lawyer or a doctor, software engineering can easily be "exported" and done from anywhere in the world. You just need to be _good_.
  - yulaow 10y ago
    I agree. I was just saying that, anyway, with 3000e/m you are not living a bad life, you are instead pretty """rich""" for the standars here. Indeed, if you can, better improve it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sergiosgc 10y ago
  Be mindful that these are pre tax numbers. Add in income tax and social security, and you may chop 50% of that salary off.
- hibikir 10y ago
  Forget Silicon Valley: It's gotten stupid expensive. The rest of the US, however, has not. I lived in Spain, and moved to the middle of the US, to a city that is about the same size as Valencia: Here, A 4 bedroom house can be had for $200K. Groceries are often cheaper here. Cars are WAY cheaper here, barring a few EU luxury brands. My mother's electricity bill, in an apartment less than half the size of my house, is double mine, so the cost of living is in no way higher than in Spain. The difference is that someone right out of school will make 60K. A completely average senior dev makes 100K. The last time I had local work I had a long term hourly contract, 40/week average, that paid $125 an hour, so 20K a month. Today I make more. So in Spain you have a cost of living that is not really any better, far higher taxes, and pay that would be seen as pretty low for a recent college graduate. Every time I visit, and people ask me why I don't come back, I just go through the economics, and Spaniards quickly agree that I'd have to be insane to come back.
pjmlp 10y ago
In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.
- hospes 10y ago
  €1500 a month is €18K a year, I believe Portugal has about 28% income tax for €7-20K income bracket (which seems very high), so it is roughly about €25K before taxes. And you are saying this is a good as it gets for Software Engineers. I was looking up real estate prices in Lisbon and they seemed pretty high. Per my understanding a lot of people from EU (and some outside of EU) are buying real estate in Portugal and that drives prices up. How do local people buy real estate then? What websites do local people in Portugal use for real estate sales and rentals?
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    We do lease for everything, TV, computer, car, house, vacation, you name it. Before the crisis you could get full credits, with 0% entry on your side. It is also quite common to live with the parents and only leave when you eventually marry, with one salary being used to pay the bank and other running costs. Or you get to buy a little piece of land with an house that gets built with lot of shortcuts along the years. Not sure what the best websites are, as I am living abroad, however many local agencies lack Internet presence. The best sources are ads on local newspapers or word of mouth.
  - jventura 10y ago
    I would advise anyone to stay away from Lisbon regarding housing as there's some kind of bubble over here because of all the tourism. The rest of the country has saner prices, so if you don't really need to live in Lisbon, stay away from it.. Regarding locals, we have a problem which is that when daily workers leave Lisbon, you can only find the tourists looking at each other..
  - paol 10y ago
    Let me correct your numbers. For 1500€ monthly net your employer will pay about 3000€ (~20% income tax + ~30% social security). Multiply by 14 (Yes there are 14 salaries in a year. Don't ask.) and the yearly gross is 42000€. Edit: https://casa.sapo.pt/ https://casa.sapo.pt/ for a look at the real estate market. "para venda" is for sale, "para alugar/aluguer" is for rent.
casta 10y ago
I don't know how it works in Spain, but in Italy the cost of an employee is probably much more than his/her salary. The employer gives you a salary, then they have to pay on top of it ~30% of INAIL, INPS etc. (pension, health "insurance" including sick days and so on) and ~10% of TFR (fund you get back at the end of your career.) In the U.S. those are costs you have to remove from your salary. So, 3000 euros a month would be 6000 euros before taxes and if you add the other employer costs, it's about 10000. Now convert it to dollars and you have a 130000 dollars a year.
- fiddlesticks22 10y ago
  When hiring contractors the company doesn't have to pay any of these things (it's on the contractor). I'm currently contracting for a company in Italy and getting much more than 3k/mo.
  - tigershark 10y ago
    You are speaking about gross salary I guess. I don't really believe that in Italy you can get much more of 3k€ net as a developer. And contracting market in Italy is really fucked up, when I was there on average contractors were paid less than permies.
  - rahkiin 10y ago
    So I guess you do like most freelancers: you don't have insurances nor build any pension? So if you get hit by a car, you have nothing.
    - mantas 10y ago
      Don't know about Italy, but at least in some EU countries, freelancers do build pension. In my country, pension payments is mandatory. As well as insurance for maternity/paternity leave. I've full medical insurance. Well, as full as regular workers. The only difference is I don't have paid sick days and can't claim unemployment benefits. Which kinda makes sense when freelancing. I think I'm eligible for disabled pension though. So if I got hit by car, I'd get free treatment. But no salary compensation. If I was rendered disabled, I may be eligible for disabled benefits based on my previous incomes. Or at least basic disabled benefits.

acchow 10y ago

I suggest taking a look at HN's "Who is Hiring" monthly threads. Try to focus on remote work for Bay Area companies - minimum should be $100k/annually for a good dev.

alvarosm 10y ago
That's the thing, you're not getting a "good dev" in Spain. And that's why they cost just 36k or are unemployed.
- cplanas 10y ago
  Or they leave.
- collyw 10y ago
  When I have been on the interviewing side, and I see what you are talking about, but there seems to plenty of decent devs when I go to the python meetup group.