4 ms·

The article says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice that, it's not hard to see why developers are not working for (or maybe even in) Spai

The article says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice that, it's not hard to see why developers are not working for (or maybe even in) Spain. I suspect the problem has more to do with Spanish businesses not being willing or able to compete for developers with market salary rates. It's frustrating that they don't provide data like that in articles like this. Instead of they a single data point anecdote about how a company can't find an Agile project manager for "up to" $220k. How about comparing the percentage of software developers in Spain to the US? Or discussing how the education for technology is different? Or what percentage of the unemployed are developers? Or software developer salaries compared to rest of EU. Or the number of Spanish developers working abroad or for companies abroad. Instead have a graph of Spain's GDP and a graph showing the size of their workforce. This is why I rarely ever click on articles and only read the comments. Most of the time it's the only place with any substance.

ldng 10y ago
A lot of skilled Spanish dev have fled to Paris and London despite the high cost of living of those cities and being paid less because they're foreigners because it is still more rewarding. In Spain, politician and corruption are pushing skilled people away. I have seen (and heard of) too many people moving out to be just mere coincidence. The subtlety is that most of the time the greedy consulting firm will keep 198K out of the 220K and the be surprised not to find anyone. "Spain is different" as some friends say.
- adwf 10y ago
  After Brexit, I'm very tempted to move in the opposite direction. If the Spanish consulting firms can be undercut to that extent, there's a potentially lucrative market. Unfortunately I only know French and German, but I could learn Spanish relatively quickly I guess. The corruption and politics is troubling however.
  - calgoo 10y ago
    Its not to bad. I live in Barcelona, the corruption is a problem, and will not be solved soon. But thats such a deep problem thats going to take a long time to solve. There is currently a a lot of talented local people and international people who want to work here. A lot of the agencies pay between 15K and 25K on average for junior developers / administrators. However, you can be stuck in the bracket for a long time unless you are able to find a way to switch to a different position. The issue is once you get a job in the 30K+ group where its a lot harder finding anything. Let me know if you have any other questions :)
  - yulaow 10y ago
    If you know decently French you will learn Spanish extremely fast, give it a try.
- biztos 10y ago
  Doesn't this give a competitive advantage to early-stage startups in Spain? Pay a little more than the average, but still way less than in Paris or London, and you'll have your pick of the good devs who don't want to emigrate, right?
  - vimes656 10y ago
    Conditions are improving in Madrid and Barcelona for startups, but in general I'd say the laws, the banks, the bureaucrats and the system in general are all very startup unfriendly. That I think it's the root of the problem. Dev salaries don't rise because there is no real competition for top talent. Many established software companies in Spain can get away with mediocre programmers with low salaries because they operate in captive markets and the quality of their products don't really matter. If politicians really wanted to fix this problem they'd make it easier for new companies to compete with the old ones, but they are doing just the opposite.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    The lower wages are a double-edged sword, because it means that your potential customers also have less money to pay you (or if you try to sell elsewhere, they are farther away which makes them harder to sell to).
cocotino 10y ago
I still remember when Tuenti opened and they started paying developers a normal developer salary (instead of the insanely low standard stuff here) and eeeeevery dev business here was mad as fuck about that. They understood it as if Tuenti were stealing developers from them, paying the unpayable for men
- themartorana 10y ago
  You mean they were mad because someone was making it difficult to take advantage of people? Because it sounds like they're pissed it became more difficult to take advantage of people. Which sounds very mafioso, not to mention the collusion that must be taking place.
  - cocotino 10y ago
    Yes that's what I meant. That's how bad was (and still is) the situation here.

ldng 10y ago

A lot of skilled Spanish dev have fled to Paris and London despite the high cost of living of those cities and being paid less because they're foreigners because it is still more rewarding. In Spain, politician and corruption are pushing skilled people away. I have seen (and heard of) too many people moving out to be just mere coincidence. The subtlety is that most of the time the greedy consulting firm will keep 198K out of the 220K and the be surprised not to find anyone. "Spain is different" as some friends say.

adwf 10y ago
After Brexit, I'm very tempted to move in the opposite direction. If the Spanish consulting firms can be undercut to that extent, there's a potentially lucrative market. Unfortunately I only know French and German, but I could learn Spanish relatively quickly I guess. The corruption and politics is troubling however.
- calgoo 10y ago
  Its not to bad. I live in Barcelona, the corruption is a problem, and will not be solved soon. But thats such a deep problem thats going to take a long time to solve. There is currently a a lot of talented local people and international people who want to work here. A lot of the agencies pay between 15K and 25K on average for junior developers / administrators. However, you can be stuck in the bracket for a long time unless you are able to find a way to switch to a different position. The issue is once you get a job in the 30K+ group where its a lot harder finding anything. Let me know if you have any other questions :)
- yulaow 10y ago
  If you know decently French you will learn Spanish extremely fast, give it a try.
biztos 10y ago
Doesn't this give a competitive advantage to early-stage startups in Spain? Pay a little more than the average, but still way less than in Paris or London, and you'll have your pick of the good devs who don't want to emigrate, right?
- vimes656 10y ago
  Conditions are improving in Madrid and Barcelona for startups, but in general I'd say the laws, the banks, the bureaucrats and the system in general are all very startup unfriendly. That I think it's the root of the problem. Dev salaries don't rise because there is no real competition for top talent. Many established software companies in Spain can get away with mediocre programmers with low salaries because they operate in captive markets and the quality of their products don't really matter. If politicians really wanted to fix this problem they'd make it easier for new companies to compete with the old ones, but they are doing just the opposite.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  The lower wages are a double-edged sword, because it means that your potential customers also have less money to pay you (or if you try to sell elsewhere, they are farther away which makes them harder to sell to).

cocotino 10y ago

I still remember when Tuenti opened and they started paying developers a normal developer salary (instead of the insanely low standard stuff here) and eeeeevery dev business here was mad as fuck about that. They understood it as if Tuenti were stealing developers from them, paying the unpayable for men

themartorana 10y ago
You mean they were mad because someone was making it difficult to take advantage of people? Because it sounds like they're pissed it became more difficult to take advantage of people. Which sounds very mafioso, not to mention the collusion that must be taking place.
- cocotino 10y ago
  Yes that's what I meant. That's how bad was (and still is) the situation here.