6 ms·

I used advantage gambling to help put myself through grad school during the first online casino boom. There were so many casinos vying for players, that many of

I used advantage gambling to help put myself through grad school during the first online casino boom. There were so many casinos vying for players, that many offered a bonus -- say $500 extra to play with if you deposit $500. Of course that $500 had a playthrough requirement -- you may have to wager a total of 20x that to withdraw -- so $10,000. Now you simply find a casino that has a game with odds that beat the playthough. So, for example, if a game has a 1% house edge, you're expected to lose about $100 wagering that $10000, leaving you a theoretical $400 in profit. Eventually, the casinos wised up and changed it so the wagering had to be done on slots, which have terrible odds. However, we figured out early on (I was in an advantage gambler forum) that there were "double or nothing" games in the slot machine, that let you go double-or-nothing between 5 and 10 times. These counted towards wagering, and were essentially perfect 50/50 odds (no house edge) - so by always going double or nothing until the end, you could rack up most of your wagers at 50/50 even though the initial slot roll was at a much higher house edge. I think I started with $100 deposit into a casino and probably made > $50k in the two years after that. About $40k of that went to bills and $10k became my initial poker bankroll while I taught myself to play poker professionally, which I did for the rest of grad school after the casino bonus gambling winded down (they eventually wised up to the slot machine thing too) -- and if you player poker at a high enough level and you use judicious table selection, you can always advantage gamble (because you are gambling with each other, not the house, though the house gets their cut with the rake -- so you have to win at a high enough level that you know you are beating the rake) I was a "small time" person, just doing it on the side to earn spending money -- there were certainly other people who had many many computers, VPNs, shill addresses, etc who took those casinos for hundreds of thousands a year for those couple years. I learned a lot about probability theory, estimated value, and the mathematics of gambling in general, gained the emotional strength to deal with high variance (the best description of playing poker professionally that I ever heard was that it was like playing a game of chess for $1, then flipping a coin for $100. In the long run that chess game is the only thing that matters, but in the short run those coin flips can be brutal). Good times.

llamataboot 10y ago
There were also plenty of shady operations in those days. I seem to remember some online gaming authorities were particularly bad about not vetting their casino operators. One time we found a casino that had a game (I forget what it was, maybe a video poker variant?) that had a HUGE (5% or so?) player edge when played optimally because of an incorrect payout structure. That casino was blasted with players betting huge amounts of money -- they must have figured something was going on but they couldn't figure out what. They were probably bankrupted within a day or so. Not only did they lock everyone's winnings that had played the game, but they kept their initial deposits as well and shut down the site...
- chillydawg 10y ago
  Sounds like a pretty great scam to me. Open a casino with a "broken" game in an easy regulatory jurisdiction (lots of these, most of them are in places with beaches, too), wait for the vultures to descend with their millions in illegal deposits routed from the US via various dodgy places and then just disappear knowing there is virtually no legal recourse for the people who lost money.
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    Sounds like the mtgox debacle too
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    I call this "Plan C" (for criminal)
  - syllogism 10y ago
    Congratulations, you've invented the Ponzi scam :) It does sound like the site was "broken" like a fox...
    - coldtea 10y ago
      What the parent described is not at all like the Ponzi scam (except leaving with the money). Ponzi scam is akin to the "pyramid scam" -- paying early investors with the money from later generations of investors. What the parent described is a "gather the money and go" operation.
simonswords82 10y ago
> the best description of playing poker professionally that I ever heard was that it was like playing a game of chess for $1, then flipping a coin for $100. In the long run that chess game is the only thing that matters, but in the short run those coin flips can be brutal Great quote! What books or online resources would you recommend for getting better at poker? Not looking to play professional but do enjoy the game and always looking to improve.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  It's been a long time now since I've studied intensely (haven't played much poker outside of the occasional home game with friends for 10 years), but I imagine the 2+2 forums are still the best forums around for discussion of strategy, hand reviews, theory, etc. David Sklanksy and Harrington and Ed Miller's books are probably the best around still in terms of a comprehensive overview of the various games, especially Hold Em and Stud, the games of course change as people change styles, but the basics are there. If you are mathematically minded or just interested in a whirlwind tour through game theory and gambling theory, I highly recommend The Mathematics of Poker by Chen and Ankenman -- but it's a pretty heavy lift https://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Poker-Bill-Chen/dp/1886070253 https://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Poker-Bill-Chen/dp/188607... I've also heard good things about Applications of No-Limit Holdem by Matthew Janda but it came out after I pretty much quit playing regularly so I haven't read it. If watching people play is more your thing there are tons of good sites out there now were good players record themselves playing and give a running commentary on their thought process as they play. It can be quite an eye opener to listen to what a good player thinks about when they make their decisions.
  - splonk 10y ago
    Pretty good recommendations. I'd add that if the Chen/Ankenmann book is too abstract, then possibly the Intelligent Poker Poker by Phil Newall is a better choice - it's kind of the more applied game theory book. MoP is an excellent book for those with a math background, but as you say, it's a bit tough for those without it.
  - Falcon9 10y ago
mod 10y ago
This sounds a lot like my story, only with less money involved. I casino whored about a 4k bankroll, and then started playing poker with it. I played recreationally until I quit my job for other reasonse--by then I had a 5-digit bankroll and then I played professionally for a few years, specializing in HUSNGs. I should have done more casino whoring in the beginning, it was just free money.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  I ended up specializing in heads-up limit cash games...until the bots came in...heads-up poker is a special game I think - meta-play can get really high with two skilled players. Definitely the hardest I've ever has to think at a high-level for hour after hour, used to end a session absolutely wiped out mentally and emotionally.
  - mod 10y ago
    Agree. My play sessions were short and my study sessions were long. I kept it pretty low-key--maxed out at $200 SNGs, but I maintained a 59.something% winrate, which was as good as anybody. I wish it would come back, but I'm not hopeful we'll ever see what we had before.
dharmon 10y ago
I also started playing poker a lot in college for "fun money", and was looking to step up my game. I went a different route, though. I did the math and realized that even at a very good hourly take, I would never make very much money, and that by going up to higher stakes tables if anything I would do worse. I didn't have much hope for tournaments either. A few years before this I had worked at a day trading firm. I don't recommend technical trading (I never could find an edge there), but then it finally "clicked" and I realized the obvious connection between the stock market and poker: you are trying to find mismatched bets where the odds are tilted in your favor. Once I made this connection I promptly switched to the stock market and never looked back (this was over 12 years ago). It took me a while to figure out a "system" (what kind of bets to look for, how do you figure "odds" with stocks, etc.) but it has been quite profitable, even counting the Great Recession, and now I do it full-time. So anyways, if you think you really "get" poker and are willing to put in the time it takes to get good, you may be better off switching to a game that pays much better, assuming you have an interest in business.
- zappo2938 10y ago
  That's what Edward O. Thorp[0], the inventor of the modern Blackjack counting system, did. He devised a way to beat the dealer, tested it on a computer at MIT, went to Reno and made a bunch of cash. But instead of following that path, he wrote a book which was boon to the gambling industry, and started a hedge fund. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp
- llamataboot 10y ago
  Depends on your definition of money I guess. At my peak before I moved to heads-up I was playing about 4-8 tables of 10/20 shorthanded at a time and averaging about 1.5 BB/100 hands after the rake. 4-8 tables online is about 400 hands an hour so that's a take of approximately $120/hour. Granted they were grueling hours and no way could you really do 8 in a day. I could make more contracting programming now I guess, but at the time it was an unreasonable amount of money for someone in grad school to be a social worker. I know a lot of people that went the poker - day trading route, some who love it and make money. I'm not much interested in business enough to learn anything beyond P/E, and I'm still not 100% convinced that people who make money trading are doing anything but ending up on the good side of the random walk, but I accept that it's possible ;) I also know some people that went from poker -> day trading -> fantasy sports because there's a lot more casual sports fan playing fantasy sports and making bad bets than there are traders making bad bets.
ryguytilidie 10y ago
I too did this during college. I remember specifically deciding to go for a SUPER HIGH VARIANCE playthrough and just did 3 max bets in a row, won all 3 and then Autobet a dollar at a time while i went to the beach to finish the rest. Made about $2k for laying on the beach. Gosh I miss those days.
wangarific 10y ago
Ha I did this too! Those were wonderful days... can you imagine the playthrough requirements used to be as low as 4x!?!? Those were the days. :)
TaroAnami 10y ago
The "advantage gamblers' forum"... was it the one from gamblers-united.com? Can I please have an invite? I beg.

llamataboot 10y ago

There were also plenty of shady operations in those days. I seem to remember some online gaming authorities were particularly bad about not vetting their casino operators. One time we found a casino that had a game (I forget what it was, maybe a video poker variant?) that had a HUGE (5% or so?) player edge when played optimally because of an incorrect payout structure. That casino was blasted with players betting huge amounts of money -- they must have figured something was going on but they couldn't figure out what. They were probably bankrupted within a day or so. Not only did they lock everyone's winnings that had played the game, but they kept their initial deposits as well and shut down the site...

chillydawg 10y ago
Sounds like a pretty great scam to me. Open a casino with a "broken" game in an easy regulatory jurisdiction (lots of these, most of them are in places with beaches, too), wait for the vultures to descend with their millions in illegal deposits routed from the US via various dodgy places and then just disappear knowing there is virtually no legal recourse for the people who lost money.
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  Sounds like the mtgox debacle too
- pmarreck 10y ago
  I call this "Plan C" (for criminal)
- syllogism 10y ago
  Congratulations, you've invented the Ponzi scam :) It does sound like the site was "broken" like a fox...
  - coldtea 10y ago
    What the parent described is not at all like the Ponzi scam (except leaving with the money). Ponzi scam is akin to the "pyramid scam" -- paying early investors with the money from later generations of investors. What the parent described is a "gather the money and go" operation.

simonswords82 10y ago

> the best description of playing poker professionally that I ever heard was that it was like playing a game of chess for $1, then flipping a coin for $100. In the long run that chess game is the only thing that matters, but in the short run those coin flips can be brutal Great quote! What books or online resources would you recommend for getting better at poker? Not looking to play professional but do enjoy the game and always looking to improve.

llamataboot 10y ago
It's been a long time now since I've studied intensely (haven't played much poker outside of the occasional home game with friends for 10 years), but I imagine the 2+2 forums are still the best forums around for discussion of strategy, hand reviews, theory, etc. David Sklanksy and Harrington and Ed Miller's books are probably the best around still in terms of a comprehensive overview of the various games, especially Hold Em and Stud, the games of course change as people change styles, but the basics are there. If you are mathematically minded or just interested in a whirlwind tour through game theory and gambling theory, I highly recommend The Mathematics of Poker by Chen and Ankenman -- but it's a pretty heavy lift https://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Poker-Bill-Chen/dp/1886070253 https://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Poker-Bill-Chen/dp/188607... I've also heard good things about Applications of No-Limit Holdem by Matthew Janda but it came out after I pretty much quit playing regularly so I haven't read it. If watching people play is more your thing there are tons of good sites out there now were good players record themselves playing and give a running commentary on their thought process as they play. It can be quite an eye opener to listen to what a good player thinks about when they make their decisions.
- splonk 10y ago
  Pretty good recommendations. I'd add that if the Chen/Ankenmann book is too abstract, then possibly the Intelligent Poker Poker by Phil Newall is a better choice - it's kind of the more applied game theory book. MoP is an excellent book for those with a math background, but as you say, it's a bit tough for those without it.
- Falcon9 10y ago

mod 10y ago

This sounds a lot like my story, only with less money involved. I casino whored about a 4k bankroll, and then started playing poker with it. I played recreationally until I quit my job for other reasonse--by then I had a 5-digit bankroll and then I played professionally for a few years, specializing in HUSNGs. I should have done more casino whoring in the beginning, it was just free money.

llamataboot 10y ago
I ended up specializing in heads-up limit cash games...until the bots came in...heads-up poker is a special game I think - meta-play can get really high with two skilled players. Definitely the hardest I've ever has to think at a high-level for hour after hour, used to end a session absolutely wiped out mentally and emotionally.
- mod 10y ago
  Agree. My play sessions were short and my study sessions were long. I kept it pretty low-key--maxed out at $200 SNGs, but I maintained a 59.something% winrate, which was as good as anybody. I wish it would come back, but I'm not hopeful we'll ever see what we had before.

dharmon 10y ago

I also started playing poker a lot in college for "fun money", and was looking to step up my game. I went a different route, though. I did the math and realized that even at a very good hourly take, I would never make very much money, and that by going up to higher stakes tables if anything I would do worse. I didn't have much hope for tournaments either. A few years before this I had worked at a day trading firm. I don't recommend technical trading (I never could find an edge there), but then it finally "clicked" and I realized the obvious connection between the stock market and poker: you are trying to find mismatched bets where the odds are tilted in your favor. Once I made this connection I promptly switched to the stock market and never looked back (this was over 12 years ago). It took me a while to figure out a "system" (what kind of bets to look for, how do you figure "odds" with stocks, etc.) but it has been quite profitable, even counting the Great Recession, and now I do it full-time. So anyways, if you think you really "get" poker and are willing to put in the time it takes to get good, you may be better off switching to a game that pays much better, assuming you have an interest in business.

zappo2938 10y ago
That's what Edward O. Thorp[0], the inventor of the modern Blackjack counting system, did. He devised a way to beat the dealer, tested it on a computer at MIT, went to Reno and made a bunch of cash. But instead of following that path, he wrote a book which was boon to the gambling industry, and started a hedge fund. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp
llamataboot 10y ago
Depends on your definition of money I guess. At my peak before I moved to heads-up I was playing about 4-8 tables of 10/20 shorthanded at a time and averaging about 1.5 BB/100 hands after the rake. 4-8 tables online is about 400 hands an hour so that's a take of approximately $120/hour. Granted they were grueling hours and no way could you really do 8 in a day. I could make more contracting programming now I guess, but at the time it was an unreasonable amount of money for someone in grad school to be a social worker. I know a lot of people that went the poker - day trading route, some who love it and make money. I'm not much interested in business enough to learn anything beyond P/E, and I'm still not 100% convinced that people who make money trading are doing anything but ending up on the good side of the random walk, but I accept that it's possible ;) I also know some people that went from poker -> day trading -> fantasy sports because there's a lot more casual sports fan playing fantasy sports and making bad bets than there are traders making bad bets.

ryguytilidie 10y ago

I too did this during college. I remember specifically deciding to go for a SUPER HIGH VARIANCE playthrough and just did 3 max bets in a row, won all 3 and then Autobet a dollar at a time while i went to the beach to finish the rest. Made about $2k for laying on the beach. Gosh I miss those days.

wangarific 10y ago

Ha I did this too! Those were wonderful days... can you imagine the playthrough requirements used to be as low as 4x!?!? Those were the days. :)

TaroAnami 10y ago

The "advantage gamblers' forum"... was it the one from gamblers-united.com? Can I please have an invite? I beg.