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I'm curious. Why is the lack of women in software development seen as a more urgent issue than the lack of men in school teaching or nursing, or the lack of wom

I'm curious. Why is the lack of women in software development seen as a more urgent issue than the lack of men in school teaching or nursing, or the lack of women in blue collar work eg garbage collecting? This isn't meant as 'whataboutery'; it's clear that talented women programmers are being missed... but what are the reasons that tech is getting the focus?

antisthenes 10y ago
> Why is the lack of women in software development seen as a more urgent issue than the lack of men in school teaching or nursing, or the lack of women in garbage collection? Seen by whom? I'd wager a sum of money that the average person is far more aware that teaching (primary school at least) is a female-prevalent field and that they do not see it as a problem. Perhaps it's not even a solvable problem (assuming we agree that it actually is a problem) > it's clear that talented women programmers are being missed... Perhaps there's a wider issue of talent being missed because the signaling during employment process in the US is broken for a large chunk of the population? Not to mention certain things like class and wealth signaling.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  But why isn't it seen as a problem? Isn't that kind of shitty that most people don't see it as a problem that teaching young children is a field "for women"? I think there is insight into the general problem of diversity in all kinds of fields (and not just the small slice of tech jobs) if we look for answers to the questions I just asked.
  - ahartman00 10y ago
    And since there are studies showing that diversity has a positive impact(in tech), why aren't we asking if diverse influences are good for our kids? Maybe male role models would be good for kids?
  - belorn 10y ago
    Last time I saw statistics (based on Sweden, so some difference might exists), only about 10% of men and 10% of women work in a profession with gender equal ratios. Sweden also has about the same 80% of women and men as employed, so it might not be that surprising that the number is so identical between the genders. The big question I find being overlooked by gender equality discussion, is why almost every profession has become gendered, and after all feminist movement in the last 50 years so, the trend of more gendered profession is continuing strong. For example, the teaching profession has since the 60's integrated female gender identity into the work culture, which pushes naturally away men from it. However, I rarely see any gender equality pointing out the problem of the teaching culture as a cause of low male participation. Tech industry has the similar "bro" culture, but that has been targeted by gender equality advocates for about as long as such culture has had a name.
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      My personal observation is that tech has money, and money is power. I would bet my salary that if programmers didn't make a lot of money, there wouldn't be the spotlight on diversity in tech that there is now. Teachers unfortunately do not get paid hardly anything. In the States at least, it is a low-paying job (except in California). Which is awful. But anyway, my perspective is that tech has a combative equality/diversity climate because there is money in tech. This is also why you can meet students in CS programs who do not like to write code. Their parents have put pressure on them to go into CS because of the legendary salary potential, or they themselves think they can pull off being a programmer without writing code, or something. I believe the reason we don't see a raucous discussion about gender equality in psychology or teaching is because those industries are not seen as having high salaries or as being powerful (even though psychologists have very high salaries, and teachers are probably the most powerful people in any society). People attach a kind of mythology to tech, but not to teaching. And so if your identity is built around fighting for diversity, tech seems like a ripe target for diversification, even if -- who knows -- it ends up being much like psychology, where it simply does not capture the interest of one gender as much as the other. But nothing is black and white, of course. For example, enough men find psychology sufficiently interesting that 5% of psychologists are men. And so the question of "Why don't women pursue careers in tech?" may be just that easy: "Because a much higher percentage of men find it interesting than do women" instead of "Because there is a conspiracy (or subconscious desire) to keep women from pursuing high-earning career paths". And just a side note: I married a Swede and spend time in Sweden, and both Sweden and the US seem to have approximately similar efforts to diversify industries based on gender.
DanBC 10y ago
> but what are the reasons that tech is getting the focus? Because you're not looking for the projects in those other areas, and so you don't find the projects, and so you think there's a focus on tech. You follow tech news, you read HN, you see all these tech-related programmes. It's a fairly simple cognitive bias.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  There may be some bias, but that doesn't explain all of it. For example psychology is now almost exclusively a woman-dominated field (literally upwards of 95% of psychologists are women). A few people have asked the question about why this is the case, but there is no spotlight on psychology like there is on tech. I challenge you to find anyone calling for diversity in psychology.
- ahartman00 10y ago
  I'm not sure about this. I read general purpose news(the us section of csmonitor everyday, and google news almost everyday). I see stories about the lack of tech diversity in regular news, but I haven't seen anything about nursing or teaching.

antisthenes 10y ago

> Why is the lack of women in software development seen as a more urgent issue than the lack of men in school teaching or nursing, or the lack of women in garbage collection? Seen by whom? I'd wager a sum of money that the average person is far more aware that teaching (primary school at least) is a female-prevalent field and that they do not see it as a problem. Perhaps it's not even a solvable problem (assuming we agree that it actually is a problem) > it's clear that talented women programmers are being missed... Perhaps there's a wider issue of talent being missed because the signaling during employment process in the US is broken for a large chunk of the population? Not to mention certain things like class and wealth signaling.

fapjacks 10y ago
But why isn't it seen as a problem? Isn't that kind of shitty that most people don't see it as a problem that teaching young children is a field "for women"? I think there is insight into the general problem of diversity in all kinds of fields (and not just the small slice of tech jobs) if we look for answers to the questions I just asked.
- ahartman00 10y ago
  And since there are studies showing that diversity has a positive impact(in tech), why aren't we asking if diverse influences are good for our kids? Maybe male role models would be good for kids?
- belorn 10y ago
  Last time I saw statistics (based on Sweden, so some difference might exists), only about 10% of men and 10% of women work in a profession with gender equal ratios. Sweden also has about the same 80% of women and men as employed, so it might not be that surprising that the number is so identical between the genders. The big question I find being overlooked by gender equality discussion, is why almost every profession has become gendered, and after all feminist movement in the last 50 years so, the trend of more gendered profession is continuing strong. For example, the teaching profession has since the 60's integrated female gender identity into the work culture, which pushes naturally away men from it. However, I rarely see any gender equality pointing out the problem of the teaching culture as a cause of low male participation. Tech industry has the similar "bro" culture, but that has been targeted by gender equality advocates for about as long as such culture has had a name.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    My personal observation is that tech has money, and money is power. I would bet my salary that if programmers didn't make a lot of money, there wouldn't be the spotlight on diversity in tech that there is now. Teachers unfortunately do not get paid hardly anything. In the States at least, it is a low-paying job (except in California). Which is awful. But anyway, my perspective is that tech has a combative equality/diversity climate because there is money in tech. This is also why you can meet students in CS programs who do not like to write code. Their parents have put pressure on them to go into CS because of the legendary salary potential, or they themselves think they can pull off being a programmer without writing code, or something. I believe the reason we don't see a raucous discussion about gender equality in psychology or teaching is because those industries are not seen as having high salaries or as being powerful (even though psychologists have very high salaries, and teachers are probably the most powerful people in any society). People attach a kind of mythology to tech, but not to teaching. And so if your identity is built around fighting for diversity, tech seems like a ripe target for diversification, even if -- who knows -- it ends up being much like psychology, where it simply does not capture the interest of one gender as much as the other. But nothing is black and white, of course. For example, enough men find psychology sufficiently interesting that 5% of psychologists are men. And so the question of "Why don't women pursue careers in tech?" may be just that easy: "Because a much higher percentage of men find it interesting than do women" instead of "Because there is a conspiracy (or subconscious desire) to keep women from pursuing high-earning career paths". And just a side note: I married a Swede and spend time in Sweden, and both Sweden and the US seem to have approximately similar efforts to diversify industries based on gender.

DanBC 10y ago

> but what are the reasons that tech is getting the focus? Because you're not looking for the projects in those other areas, and so you don't find the projects, and so you think there's a focus on tech. You follow tech news, you read HN, you see all these tech-related programmes. It's a fairly simple cognitive bias.

fapjacks 10y ago
There may be some bias, but that doesn't explain all of it. For example psychology is now almost exclusively a woman-dominated field (literally upwards of 95% of psychologists are women). A few people have asked the question about why this is the case, but there is no spotlight on psychology like there is on tech. I challenge you to find anyone calling for diversity in psychology.
ahartman00 10y ago
I'm not sure about this. I read general purpose news(the us section of csmonitor everyday, and google news almost everyday). I see stories about the lack of tech diversity in regular news, but I haven't seen anything about nursing or teaching.