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gadders has a point. It'd be leaving one union to 'gain independence' only to join another, with a corresponding loss of sovereignty. Indeed the main reason (ac

by robhu 10y ago

gadders has a point. It'd be leaving one union to 'gain independence' only to join another, with a corresponding loss of sovereignty. Indeed the main reason (according to Lord Ashcroft's poll) people voted to leave the EU in the refendum was to regain sovereignty.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago
I covered this in the post you're replying to, but having to beg someone to let you leave vs. saying "we're leaving" shows a clear disparity in sovereignty. Most of the claims of loss of sovereignty to the EU were in fact nonsense. This video by an expert in EU law covers it in detail: https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/ https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-ind... > So let us start with a couple of myths. The first is the myth of sovereignty, there is no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state under international law. There is no doubt whatsoever that the parliament in Westminster is the supreme law making authority in this country. > Conversely there is no doubt whatsoever that the EU is not a sovereign entity, far from being a sovereign state, it is not even a sovereign entity, it has only those powers which has been given under the EU treaties. If the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it is purely because our parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation. > So is the UK a sovereign state? Yes. > Is parliament our supreme legislative authority? Yes. > So why do we keep hearing about sovereignty in this debate. The fact is that sovereignty is not really an issue in the debate, it is about power and influence and sovereignty is being used as a shorthand to talk about power and influence.
- krona 10y ago
  I read the transcript of that video. He seems to be making conclusions about the Review of the Balance of Competencies between the UK and the EU that 1: the report itself doesn't make, and 2: I find very easy to disagree with (after reading a sample of the report myself, which is extensive). The depth of his analysis (which goes no further than the Working Time Directive!) is about consistent with most self-proclaimed experts on Law that have never practiced it themselves. The same goes for his impartiality. For instance, his conclusion that the UK is sovereign because parliament ultimately decides what the UK courts do is nonsense: what do you think would happen if our courts started ignoring the rulings of the ECJ?
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    We don't have to wonder, we'll find out what happens in that case, because it seems likely we'll cancel the UK law that tells the UK courts to do that as part of the process of Brexit. Something we can do, because we have sovereignty.

by robhu 10y ago

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

I covered this in the post you're replying to, but having to beg someone to let you leave vs. saying "we're leaving" shows a clear disparity in sovereignty. Most of the claims of loss of sovereignty to the EU were in fact nonsense. This video by an expert in EU law covers it in detail: https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/ https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-ind... > So let us start with a couple of myths. The first is the myth of sovereignty, there is no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state under international law. There is no doubt whatsoever that the parliament in Westminster is the supreme law making authority in this country. > Conversely there is no doubt whatsoever that the EU is not a sovereign entity, far from being a sovereign state, it is not even a sovereign entity, it has only those powers which has been given under the EU treaties. If the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it is purely because our parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation. > So is the UK a sovereign state? Yes. > Is parliament our supreme legislative authority? Yes. > So why do we keep hearing about sovereignty in this debate. The fact is that sovereignty is not really an issue in the debate, it is about power and influence and sovereignty is being used as a shorthand to talk about power and influence.

krona 10y ago
I read the transcript of that video. He seems to be making conclusions about the Review of the Balance of Competencies between the UK and the EU that 1: the report itself doesn't make, and 2: I find very easy to disagree with (after reading a sample of the report myself, which is extensive). The depth of his analysis (which goes no further than the Working Time Directive!) is about consistent with most self-proclaimed experts on Law that have never practiced it themselves. The same goes for his impartiality. For instance, his conclusion that the UK is sovereign because parliament ultimately decides what the UK courts do is nonsense: what do you think would happen if our courts started ignoring the rulings of the ECJ?
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  We don't have to wonder, we'll find out what happens in that case, because it seems likely we'll cancel the UK law that tells the UK courts to do that as part of the process of Brexit. Something we can do, because we have sovereignty.