20 ms·

Brazil court blocks Facebook funds over WhatsApp dispute

79 points by ilarum 10y ago

afswashere 10y ago
As a Brazilian I say sorry for all the brainless judges and law makers that we have.
- akerro 10y ago
  Ym... you're sorry for this and I which judges in my country had enough courage to do such thing.
  - kringdom89 10y ago
    We don't have elected judges so that might help. Our judges need to be approved in a incredible hard Civil service entrance examination. Also, they have several constitutional protections that protect them from political or public subordination as they have jobs for life, they can't be moved to another city without their consent, etc.
    - fiatjaf 10y ago
      You're not talking about Brazil, right?
      - kringdom89 10y ago
        I'm talking about Brazil. Sorry if it was not clear enough.
        akerro 10y ago
        because it works the same in Europe.
        cm3 10y ago
        Are you sure about the restriction in mobility for judges in Europe?
- _pmf_ 10y ago
  > As a Brazilian I say sorry for all the brainless judges and law makers that we have. Do you want them to act like Brazil is the USA's lackay (and end up like Mexico)?
  - onli 10y ago
    How is that related to what is happening here? To fine a company for not getting that a company can't provide data it does not have is incompetence, not an act of sovereignty.
    - venomsnake 10y ago
      The US courts tend to dislike willful ignorance. Why do you expect Brazilian ones to be different?
    - meira 10y ago
      To fine a company (and some variants, like Google) in a strike of years and receive the same answer always is indeed an act against brazillian sovereignty.
      - evgen 10y ago
        And now Brazil is going to find out how little the rest of the internet cares about their sovereignty claims in this particular case. This is pure win for Whatsapp; Brazilian revenue is less for FB/WA than in most countries given the lingering zombie corpse of Orkut, so it does not cost as much to tell the Brazilian courts to piss off and gain street cred in markets they actually do care about.
        skuzye 10y ago
        Orkut is a non-factor in Brazil currently and has been for years now. Facebook and whatsapp is used by basically everyone who has internet access [1][2] Edit: Of course number of users does not imply in revenue, but the Facebook office in Brazil is also a gateway to other Latin American countries. So I would argue that the country might not be as unimportant as you seem to imply. [1]http://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-based-on-number-of-facebook-users/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-b... [2]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/05/03/whatsapp-shutdown-in-brazil-blocks-100-million-users/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/05/03/whatsapp-sh...
- meira 10y ago
  As a software Engineer and tech founder (and Brazillian), I say sorry for all the brainless sh*t people from silicon valley think is right to do to other countries systems, laws and regulations to get more rich and make you all more poor.
  - lunula 10y ago
    What do you think can be done about this attitude?
    - gajjanag 10y ago
      Some general thoughts. I would guess that the first step is acknowledging that the problem exists and is not made up by a few disgruntled people. The next step is understanding, for which there are plenty of resources on the web as a start. I believe that living in another country for at least a year is helpful. Note that it is very easy to fall into the trap of insulating oneself from the local culture by simply trying to copy over one's main country of residence. I have seen it happen all too often with many NRI's in India. Then comes the really hard part, which is creating solutions based on such understanding.
      - at-fates-hands 10y ago
        >> I would guess that the first step is acknowledging that the problem exists and is not made up by a few disgruntled people. Good luck with this one. This is how the US has become so polarized and there is no end in sight. Nobody wants to admit there's a problem and take responsibility. It's always someone else's problem and how come they can see/understand/comprehend it?? - too much political correctness - too much worrying about upsetting someone's feelings - too much technology - Too much selfishness It's incredibly depressing.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - rglullis 10y ago
    How has whatsapp/fb made you more poor?
- rmsaksida 10y ago
  Don't apologize. The judiciary and the federal police are the only institutions we have that kind of work. I agree judges have usually been wrong on this subject, but not because "it's Whatsapp" - Whatsapp shouldn't be treated a special entity.
- fiatjaf 10y ago
  As a Brazilian I ask for a US invasion and takeover of all our federal institutions.
  - sargas 10y ago
    And solve one problem by implanting another?
- otaviokz 10y ago
  Do you realise those companies regularly cooperate with USA police in similar cases? Why should you be ashamed of your country acting as the sovereign nation it is?
akerro 10y ago
Does anyone think if it might have second background related to this: http://www.latinpost.com/articles/116806/20160226/brazils-nsa-avoiding-underwater-cable-to-europe-could-be-catching-silicon-valleys-eyes.htm http://www.latinpost.com/articles/116806/20160226/brazils-ns... and it could be just a nasty attack on US corporation that cooperates with NSA?
- lanevorockz 10y ago
  I might as well be that, NSA is so unethical that it will be always polemic and a pain for any US company. In the end apart from trillions of cost it might as well have the same economic impact on top of that.
- meira 10y ago
  I hope so
rmsaksida 10y ago
This isn't as simple as it seems: 1) The investigation that led to these fines (and now to freezing Facebook's funds) begun in January 2015, way before widespread encryption was implemented in Whatsapp. Whatsapp received several requests to cooperate from the first month, apparently without reply. So the argument that E2E encryption is the reason why they do not cooperate doesn't really hold. [1] 2) On the other hand, our judges and the police have flirted with the ridiculous notion that Whatsapp should "disable encryption for some users" or "find a technological solution to get around encryption" (meaning: a backdoor). [2] While this is obviously possible, it is also clearly unethical and a judge shouldn't punish the company over this possibility without there being a large discussion - possibly laws - on the subject. People have been quick to blame the judges because of extreme court actions, but the truth is Whatsapp is no saint; some of these investigations could hit high profile criminals and obviously getting to their communications would have been a lot of help to the police, and this was possible at some point. It isn't possible anymore, so I think what we're seeing now is a backlash from those early requests. [1] http://paranaportal.uol.com.br/geral/justica-de-londrina-bloqueia-r-195-milhoes-por-segredo-de-dados-no-whatsapp/ http://paranaportal.uol.com.br/geral/justica-de-londrina-blo... [2] http://m.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/sys/start.htm?UserActiveTemplate=site&infoid=42533&sid=4 http://m.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/sys/start...
- madballs 10y ago
  behind a highly criminal drug cartel operation, there is a CIA connection... most likely the company is being forced to cover it up to protect criminals in high places... but that is just my conspiracy theory...
type0 10y ago
> Facebook said WhatsApp does not store client messages and could not read them if they did because they are encrypted. I wonder if the response would be the same if this request was coming from the US authorities.
- williamscales 10y ago
  One would hope so. If WhatsApp isn't lying horribly, it would be. But I suppose we'll never know.
edpichler 10y ago
So difficult to a judge understand what is encryption.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  So difficult for a tech company to understand what government jurisdiction is.
  - greiskul 10y ago
    But when you use that jurisdiction to order something that is literally impossible, you don't sound powerful, just stupid.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      But its not impossible. If you make decryption impossible, the law can require you to not make it so. If you're a commercial entity, and you don't follow the law, you can be dissolved. This is XKCD 101: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
      - outworlder 10y ago
        Except that Facebook is not a Brazilian company. They would just leave the country instead.
        sargas 10y ago
        And that's entirely possible.
  - edpichler 10y ago
    The crime will happen no matter what tool they use. If there is no privacy on WhatsApp, they will send messages with any other software. Encrypted messengers apps will be always available, because they are need for legal purposes. If we follow the logic of this judge, all car and beer companies should be accountable for the drivers that kill driving drunk. Please, tell me that I am wrong.
mikeweiss 10y ago
Facebook just doesn't care, peanuts to them, plain and simple.
- Scarbutt 10y ago
  Not if they block whatsapp.

79 points by ilarum 10y ago

afswashere 10y ago

As a Brazilian I say sorry for all the brainless judges and law makers that we have.

akerro 10y ago
Ym... you're sorry for this and I which judges in my country had enough courage to do such thing.
- kringdom89 10y ago
  We don't have elected judges so that might help. Our judges need to be approved in a incredible hard Civil service entrance examination. Also, they have several constitutional protections that protect them from political or public subordination as they have jobs for life, they can't be moved to another city without their consent, etc.
  - fiatjaf 10y ago
    You're not talking about Brazil, right?
    - kringdom89 10y ago
      I'm talking about Brazil. Sorry if it was not clear enough.
      - akerro 10y ago
        because it works the same in Europe.
        cm3 10y ago
        Are you sure about the restriction in mobility for judges in Europe?
_pmf_ 10y ago
> As a Brazilian I say sorry for all the brainless judges and law makers that we have. Do you want them to act like Brazil is the USA's lackay (and end up like Mexico)?
- onli 10y ago
  How is that related to what is happening here? To fine a company for not getting that a company can't provide data it does not have is incompetence, not an act of sovereignty.
  - venomsnake 10y ago
    The US courts tend to dislike willful ignorance. Why do you expect Brazilian ones to be different?
  - meira 10y ago
    To fine a company (and some variants, like Google) in a strike of years and receive the same answer always is indeed an act against brazillian sovereignty.
    - evgen 10y ago
      And now Brazil is going to find out how little the rest of the internet cares about their sovereignty claims in this particular case. This is pure win for Whatsapp; Brazilian revenue is less for FB/WA than in most countries given the lingering zombie corpse of Orkut, so it does not cost as much to tell the Brazilian courts to piss off and gain street cred in markets they actually do care about.
      - skuzye 10y ago
        Orkut is a non-factor in Brazil currently and has been for years now. Facebook and whatsapp is used by basically everyone who has internet access [1][2] Edit: Of course number of users does not imply in revenue, but the Facebook office in Brazil is also a gateway to other Latin American countries. So I would argue that the country might not be as unimportant as you seem to imply. [1]http://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-based-on-number-of-facebook-users/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/268136/top-15-countries-b... [2]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/05/03/whatsapp-shutdown-in-brazil-blocks-100-million-users/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/05/03/whatsapp-sh...
meira 10y ago
As a software Engineer and tech founder (and Brazillian), I say sorry for all the brainless sh*t people from silicon valley think is right to do to other countries systems, laws and regulations to get more rich and make you all more poor.
- lunula 10y ago
  What do you think can be done about this attitude?
  - gajjanag 10y ago
    Some general thoughts. I would guess that the first step is acknowledging that the problem exists and is not made up by a few disgruntled people. The next step is understanding, for which there are plenty of resources on the web as a start. I believe that living in another country for at least a year is helpful. Note that it is very easy to fall into the trap of insulating oneself from the local culture by simply trying to copy over one's main country of residence. I have seen it happen all too often with many NRI's in India. Then comes the really hard part, which is creating solutions based on such understanding.
    - at-fates-hands 10y ago
      >> I would guess that the first step is acknowledging that the problem exists and is not made up by a few disgruntled people. Good luck with this one. This is how the US has become so polarized and there is no end in sight. Nobody wants to admit there's a problem and take responsibility. It's always someone else's problem and how come they can see/understand/comprehend it?? - too much political correctness - too much worrying about upsetting someone's feelings - too much technology - Too much selfishness It's incredibly depressing.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- rglullis 10y ago
  How has whatsapp/fb made you more poor?
rmsaksida 10y ago
Don't apologize. The judiciary and the federal police are the only institutions we have that kind of work. I agree judges have usually been wrong on this subject, but not because "it's Whatsapp" - Whatsapp shouldn't be treated a special entity.
fiatjaf 10y ago
As a Brazilian I ask for a US invasion and takeover of all our federal institutions.
- sargas 10y ago
  And solve one problem by implanting another?
otaviokz 10y ago
Do you realise those companies regularly cooperate with USA police in similar cases? Why should you be ashamed of your country acting as the sovereign nation it is?

akerro 10y ago

Does anyone think if it might have second background related to this: http://www.latinpost.com/articles/116806/20160226/brazils-nsa-avoiding-underwater-cable-to-europe-could-be-catching-silicon-valleys-eyes.htm http://www.latinpost.com/articles/116806/20160226/brazils-ns... and it could be just a nasty attack on US corporation that cooperates with NSA?

lanevorockz 10y ago
I might as well be that, NSA is so unethical that it will be always polemic and a pain for any US company. In the end apart from trillions of cost it might as well have the same economic impact on top of that.
meira 10y ago
I hope so

rmsaksida 10y ago

This isn't as simple as it seems: 1) The investigation that led to these fines (and now to freezing Facebook's funds) begun in January 2015, way before widespread encryption was implemented in Whatsapp. Whatsapp received several requests to cooperate from the first month, apparently without reply. So the argument that E2E encryption is the reason why they do not cooperate doesn't really hold. [1] 2) On the other hand, our judges and the police have flirted with the ridiculous notion that Whatsapp should "disable encryption for some users" or "find a technological solution to get around encryption" (meaning: a backdoor). [2] While this is obviously possible, it is also clearly unethical and a judge shouldn't punish the company over this possibility without there being a large discussion - possibly laws - on the subject. People have been quick to blame the judges because of extreme court actions, but the truth is Whatsapp is no saint; some of these investigations could hit high profile criminals and obviously getting to their communications would have been a lot of help to the police, and this was possible at some point. It isn't possible anymore, so I think what we're seeing now is a backlash from those early requests. [1] http://paranaportal.uol.com.br/geral/justica-de-londrina-bloqueia-r-195-milhoes-por-segredo-de-dados-no-whatsapp/ http://paranaportal.uol.com.br/geral/justica-de-londrina-blo... [2] http://m.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/sys/start.htm?UserActiveTemplate=site&infoid=42533&sid=4 http://m.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/sys/start...

madballs 10y ago
behind a highly criminal drug cartel operation, there is a CIA connection... most likely the company is being forced to cover it up to protect criminals in high places... but that is just my conspiracy theory...

type0 10y ago

> Facebook said WhatsApp does not store client messages and could not read them if they did because they are encrypted. I wonder if the response would be the same if this request was coming from the US authorities.

williamscales 10y ago
One would hope so. If WhatsApp isn't lying horribly, it would be. But I suppose we'll never know.

edpichler 10y ago

So difficult to a judge understand what is encryption.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
So difficult for a tech company to understand what government jurisdiction is.
- greiskul 10y ago
  But when you use that jurisdiction to order something that is literally impossible, you don't sound powerful, just stupid.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    But its not impossible. If you make decryption impossible, the law can require you to not make it so. If you're a commercial entity, and you don't follow the law, you can be dissolved. This is XKCD 101: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
    - outworlder 10y ago
      Except that Facebook is not a Brazilian company. They would just leave the country instead.
      - sargas 10y ago
        And that's entirely possible.
- edpichler 10y ago
  The crime will happen no matter what tool they use. If there is no privacy on WhatsApp, they will send messages with any other software. Encrypted messengers apps will be always available, because they are need for legal purposes. If we follow the logic of this judge, all car and beer companies should be accountable for the drivers that kill driving drunk. Please, tell me that I am wrong.

mikeweiss 10y ago

Facebook just doesn't care, peanuts to them, plain and simple.

Scarbutt 10y ago
Not if they block whatsapp.