8 ms·

>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.”

>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.” I feel like this is a problem our whole life however it is only once we retire that we are forced to confront it. Until then we are able to avoid dealing with a lack of fulfilling activities outside of work, limited social connections and a weak sense of identity outside of work by simply working more. When we retire that coping mechanism goes away and you are left with no hobbies, a weak social network and a weak self image. Personally, I strongly recommend trying cutting your work commitments to something like 20 hours per week. Do this for a year or so. It will give you a chance to realize that many of the things you previously did whenever you got the chance (sleeping in etc) become extremely boring when you can do them all the time. After a while you will likely start to crave some sense of structure and accomplishment and the sooner you start filling the void outside of your work the better. Having a meaningful existence outside of your job will make you happier both now and in retirement.

chubot 10y ago
I think this is why it's good to work for an employer who supports open source. You don't want the entire value of your work and your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company. I saw this happen to both my parents. My dad was forced to retire at 53 and the value of his work was locked up inside that company (he worked there for over 20 years, so your skills develop in a bubble). For the last year and a half, I've been working on open source sponsored by the company. (I've worked on open source since 2009, but this is the first time I've been paid for it.) Even though it's mostly "our" project, there are enough outsiders lurking / paying attention I know that if I were to leave the company, I might have some opportunities or people to reach out to, or even just people to talk to about technical topics. Some of the proprietary software I've worked on has been very interesting, important, and technically sophisticated... but I know that once I leave the company, its value is drastically decreased. Basically you have to build up that value "from scratch" again, whereas open source can be forked, modified, combined, etc.
- andyjdavis 10y ago
  I have also been employed to work on open source software. I actually didn't really think of it until now but it is nice to still see stuff going on in the project. I am still on some mailing lists plus I get notifications of tickets I previously touched being modified, commented on, resolved. It is also still quite within my capabilities to jump on and fix the occasional bug if I so desire, or just provide some thoughts on issues others are working through. As you mention, the proprietary software companies I have worked for are very different. By close of business on your final day you are locked out of everything.
- distances 10y ago
  > your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company. I work for a company that fosters a community of our company alumni. Mostly by having a side chat alongside the main company chats, and arranging alumni meetings every now and then. So nothing that big really. But it does help I think -- some people decide to come back later, there are perhaps new business opportunities for the company, you get to keep in touch with old colleagues. I think it's a very good thing to have.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I think this is why it's good to work for an employer who supports open source. Because open source is somehow inherent to a meaningful life?
  - viscanti 10y ago
    I think the idea is that there's a potentially meaningful part of someone's life outside of their company if what they work on isn't just contained in their company. I don't read it as the OP suggesting it's a precondition for a meaningful life; it seems to be one potential path.
  - chubot 10y ago
    No, the claim is: for programmers, it's better to work for a company who supports open source than one that doesn't. As the article mentioned, work is important for life. It gives your mind varied experiences, which keeps it sharp. Open source means the value of your work doesn't evaporate once you leave the company. Of course, you could try to fill 8 hours a day with something besides programming once your retire. But it's still strictly better to have the OPTION to continue programming, and even better to do it with some of the same code (assuming nontrivial codebases). If you spend 30 years doing something 40 hours a week, you're going to be a lot better at it than something you only did on weekends. And at least for me, the reward is tied to the accomplishment. For example, I've been learning how make videos with a DSLR recently. But this is at most a weekend thing. It's not that rewarding in the initial stages since I'm not good at it, and nobody cares about the end result because it's not good enough. With programming that's not the case. If I were retired, I wouldn't be able to build meaningful work out of shooting video (or at least it would take another 5-10 years to do so). But I would be able to with programming, outside of a job. I could teach programming too, whereas I can't teach video. But of course it's good to cultivate other hobbies... you could get crippling RSI and not be able to program. But my point is that work is privileged over hobbies. It's a different thing. Dawdling around with no goal is what makes people lose their mental toughness.
deepGem 10y ago
+1. If your finances are sorted out, it's good to take a break from work for 2-3 months and do absolutely nothing. What you once craved, 8 hours of sleep, hanging out with friends, traveling, spending time with family etc, once you experience them for a long enough time, will start hurting and you will start craving for work. I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever, which is why I also believe that UBI will also work.
- andyjdavis 10y ago
  >I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever Absolutely. My wife and I spent a few years traveling full-time, mostly SE Asia. I worked remotely while my wife was busy with various projects. In particular, tropical islands are incredibly damaging to your motivation and general happiness. We arrived grossly overestimating how much we would enjoying hanging out on a tropical islands and met a great many people who had the same misconception. For good reason most who have the option to stay long term get bored and then go somewhere else after a few weeks or months. Among those who stay long term alcoholism is rife. There just isn't that much to do in a "tropical paradise", particularly at night. Getting back into a city was a genuine relief after a few months of islands, beaches etc.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    The things that got me were the mosquitoes, sunburn and lack of a decent cup of coffee. I hate tropical islands now.
    - vasilipupkin 10y ago
      Move to Venice Beach or San Diego. No mosquitoes
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    well, staying at one place makes no sense if you want to have ultimate experience. one can easily spend 10-20 years travelling from one exotic location to the next, if cash is present. even just tropical paradise hopping can be done for 1-2 years. best setup i've seen is to travel around the globe maybe 2 years, through all possible locations. enjoy given country for few weeks/months if it's a big one and move. after that, people were ready to settle (but who knows for how long)
tajen 10y ago
I recognize I'm in this situation, but I have no idea what one could do to make a life meaningful, outside of good work or raising great kids, hopefully with a loving partner. I have already tried many things: Living in 3 other countries for 4 years in total (but I was missing family and friends support), being self-employed (I do B2B software like P.McKenzie), learning to dance (3 times, but I feel crap at it), music, judo, hundreds hours of volunteering (social, like activities for kids or refugees or mid-suburbs, or climate) but at one point it feels like cheap exploitation of underpaid workers, ... My sister climbs summits or goes to the end of herself (6000km biking anyone?) but I don't see the point. Those experiences never made me feel happy or fulfilled with my life (I'm 33). Only having a girlfriend once fulfilled me (until she dumped me like "you don't have leadership with your life") but you didn't count "partner" among things that fulfill your free time, did you? Let's be honest, I find life a bit boring ;) So what do you mean with "structure and accomplishment"? Do you have examples?
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  one advice - take a backpack, turn off your phone and go around india for couple of months, low key, low budget. either himalaya, or south, or anything in between (varanasi can be a powerful experience). it changed my life for better, much better, and so did for many more people. It doesn't have to be india per se, but it's the most exotic place to western culture out there and supremely huge. if you look for some enlightenment from behind the keyboard, there will be none. (on personal level, mountains and travelling to them & around did it for me. it takes time to be in shape to enjoy them and not only suffer up & down, but it's well worth it. most intense moments of my life happened this way. i will die with a smile on my face for having a privilege to experience them)
  - jventura 10y ago
    It's a good advice, but not everyone needs to run away from something. Sometimes we just have to face ourselves and do a deep introspection on our lives.. I, for myself, find it really hard sometimes to know how I should run my life, or what are my goals. Maybe sometimes there isn't any need to have goals, or maybe my goal is to accomplish every goal so that I empty my goal bucket.. Whatever, I think each one of us are mostly giving bad advices to each other, and the truth is that almost no one knows with certainty what we're doing with our lifes. We just go with the tide, turning left or right when things seems to match what we think we want..
greggman 10y ago
I've been out of work for 3 years (by choice). I haven't found this way to fill my void outside of work better. I'm not sure jumping in the deep end and assuming people will find a way is the right path for everyone. I've done a lot of open source in that time but, at least for me that's not enough. I don't have an SO and so effectively I have zero companionship. Work often filled that void, especially with lots of overtime on teams. My closest friends are all x-coworkers. The last job though, for whatever reason, provided none of that, co-workers never became friends outside of work, one of the reasons I left. I'm not retired though (don't have funds for that) so eventually I'll get a job again. In the meantime there's all the obvious solutions like volunteering, going to meetups, organizing meetups, etc. For various reasons I haven't pursued those yet
neap24 10y ago
This is why I love teaching. You get a "mini-retirement" for the two summer months every year. After a few years, this gets old and you are forced to find new hobbies to fill the time. Nowadays, I look forward to my summers off precisely because I can start working on my hobbies/side projects for 30 hours a week.
- TwiztidK 10y ago
  I once heard someone say that there are three reasons they love being a teacher: June, July, and August.
chipsambos 10y ago
>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.” That is why it's important not anchor your identity in the transient. The world is full of people who do and it invariably hits them hard when things inevitably change: Mothers with empty nest syndrome, ageing people clinging desperately to their youthful good looks, jobless and retired people who find their self-esteem smashed and consider themselves useless. It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself.
- ambicapter 10y ago
  What can you anchor yourself which Isn't transient?
  - knicholes 10y ago
    I like to anchor myself on being an honest person.
    - lunchTime42 10y ago
      That was transcendent ;)
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  > It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself. Most of those things ARE transient. Most of the retirees anymore had their jobs for life (ok, 30+ years). As in, within a single company. After that long, employment is taken for granted, and it's hard to see oneself not being on the job.
  - 10y ago
mcshicks 10y ago
I took an early retirement a few years ago, this is good advice about cutting back work, but for many people it's hard to get there employer to agree to fewer hours. There are many reasons for this, not the least of which the way many employers control cost is buy just limiting headcount. Another option, which I took is to take a leave of absence. I took off 4 months, the most I could swing about 5 years before I finally quit. Certainly for 4 months I didn't feel bored at all. For me at least, two years now I'm not bored at all. For people interested in learning new technology, in my opinion there has never been a better time. Also agree with the need to develop social connections outside of work. That could be friends you share a hobby or activity with, a volunteer group or cause you believe in, or anything else. Another option is finding part time work after you quit. I had a close childhood friend who asked me to help him with a project. We live in different parts of the country and previously we communicated at best once a year or so. Now even when there's not much to do we talk at least once a month. I also recommend reading up on the subject before you do. This is reading list I went through leading up to my retirement. While much of the financial advice maybe out of date, some of it covers just the psychological aspects. http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rebooks.html http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rebooks.html

chubot 10y ago

I think this is why it's good to work for an employer who supports open source. You don't want the entire value of your work and your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company. I saw this happen to both my parents. My dad was forced to retire at 53 and the value of his work was locked up inside that company (he worked there for over 20 years, so your skills develop in a bubble). For the last year and a half, I've been working on open source sponsored by the company. (I've worked on open source since 2009, but this is the first time I've been paid for it.) Even though it's mostly "our" project, there are enough outsiders lurking / paying attention I know that if I were to leave the company, I might have some opportunities or people to reach out to, or even just people to talk to about technical topics. Some of the proprietary software I've worked on has been very interesting, important, and technically sophisticated... but I know that once I leave the company, its value is drastically decreased. Basically you have to build up that value "from scratch" again, whereas open source can be forked, modified, combined, etc.

andyjdavis 10y ago
I have also been employed to work on open source software. I actually didn't really think of it until now but it is nice to still see stuff going on in the project. I am still on some mailing lists plus I get notifications of tickets I previously touched being modified, commented on, resolved. It is also still quite within my capabilities to jump on and fix the occasional bug if I so desire, or just provide some thoughts on issues others are working through. As you mention, the proprietary software companies I have worked for are very different. By close of business on your final day you are locked out of everything.
distances 10y ago
> your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company. I work for a company that fosters a community of our company alumni. Mostly by having a side chat alongside the main company chats, and arranging alumni meetings every now and then. So nothing that big really. But it does help I think -- some people decide to come back later, there are perhaps new business opportunities for the company, you get to keep in touch with old colleagues. I think it's a very good thing to have.
coldtea 10y ago
>I think this is why it's good to work for an employer who supports open source. Because open source is somehow inherent to a meaningful life?
- viscanti 10y ago
  I think the idea is that there's a potentially meaningful part of someone's life outside of their company if what they work on isn't just contained in their company. I don't read it as the OP suggesting it's a precondition for a meaningful life; it seems to be one potential path.
- chubot 10y ago
  No, the claim is: for programmers, it's better to work for a company who supports open source than one that doesn't. As the article mentioned, work is important for life. It gives your mind varied experiences, which keeps it sharp. Open source means the value of your work doesn't evaporate once you leave the company. Of course, you could try to fill 8 hours a day with something besides programming once your retire. But it's still strictly better to have the OPTION to continue programming, and even better to do it with some of the same code (assuming nontrivial codebases). If you spend 30 years doing something 40 hours a week, you're going to be a lot better at it than something you only did on weekends. And at least for me, the reward is tied to the accomplishment. For example, I've been learning how make videos with a DSLR recently. But this is at most a weekend thing. It's not that rewarding in the initial stages since I'm not good at it, and nobody cares about the end result because it's not good enough. With programming that's not the case. If I were retired, I wouldn't be able to build meaningful work out of shooting video (or at least it would take another 5-10 years to do so). But I would be able to with programming, outside of a job. I could teach programming too, whereas I can't teach video. But of course it's good to cultivate other hobbies... you could get crippling RSI and not be able to program. But my point is that work is privileged over hobbies. It's a different thing. Dawdling around with no goal is what makes people lose their mental toughness.

deepGem 10y ago

+1. If your finances are sorted out, it's good to take a break from work for 2-3 months and do absolutely nothing. What you once craved, 8 hours of sleep, hanging out with friends, traveling, spending time with family etc, once you experience them for a long enough time, will start hurting and you will start craving for work. I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever, which is why I also believe that UBI will also work.

andyjdavis 10y ago
>I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever Absolutely. My wife and I spent a few years traveling full-time, mostly SE Asia. I worked remotely while my wife was busy with various projects. In particular, tropical islands are incredibly damaging to your motivation and general happiness. We arrived grossly overestimating how much we would enjoying hanging out on a tropical islands and met a great many people who had the same misconception. For good reason most who have the option to stay long term get bored and then go somewhere else after a few weeks or months. Among those who stay long term alcoholism is rife. There just isn't that much to do in a "tropical paradise", particularly at night. Getting back into a city was a genuine relief after a few months of islands, beaches etc.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  The things that got me were the mosquitoes, sunburn and lack of a decent cup of coffee. I hate tropical islands now.
  - vasilipupkin 10y ago
    Move to Venice Beach or San Diego. No mosquitoes
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  well, staying at one place makes no sense if you want to have ultimate experience. one can easily spend 10-20 years travelling from one exotic location to the next, if cash is present. even just tropical paradise hopping can be done for 1-2 years. best setup i've seen is to travel around the globe maybe 2 years, through all possible locations. enjoy given country for few weeks/months if it's a big one and move. after that, people were ready to settle (but who knows for how long)

tajen 10y ago

I recognize I'm in this situation, but I have no idea what one could do to make a life meaningful, outside of good work or raising great kids, hopefully with a loving partner. I have already tried many things: Living in 3 other countries for 4 years in total (but I was missing family and friends support), being self-employed (I do B2B software like P.McKenzie), learning to dance (3 times, but I feel crap at it), music, judo, hundreds hours of volunteering (social, like activities for kids or refugees or mid-suburbs, or climate) but at one point it feels like cheap exploitation of underpaid workers, ... My sister climbs summits or goes to the end of herself (6000km biking anyone?) but I don't see the point. Those experiences never made me feel happy or fulfilled with my life (I'm 33). Only having a girlfriend once fulfilled me (until she dumped me like "you don't have leadership with your life") but you didn't count "partner" among things that fulfill your free time, did you? Let's be honest, I find life a bit boring ;) So what do you mean with "structure and accomplishment"? Do you have examples?

saiya-jin 10y ago
one advice - take a backpack, turn off your phone and go around india for couple of months, low key, low budget. either himalaya, or south, or anything in between (varanasi can be a powerful experience). it changed my life for better, much better, and so did for many more people. It doesn't have to be india per se, but it's the most exotic place to western culture out there and supremely huge. if you look for some enlightenment from behind the keyboard, there will be none. (on personal level, mountains and travelling to them & around did it for me. it takes time to be in shape to enjoy them and not only suffer up & down, but it's well worth it. most intense moments of my life happened this way. i will die with a smile on my face for having a privilege to experience them)
- jventura 10y ago
  It's a good advice, but not everyone needs to run away from something. Sometimes we just have to face ourselves and do a deep introspection on our lives.. I, for myself, find it really hard sometimes to know how I should run my life, or what are my goals. Maybe sometimes there isn't any need to have goals, or maybe my goal is to accomplish every goal so that I empty my goal bucket.. Whatever, I think each one of us are mostly giving bad advices to each other, and the truth is that almost no one knows with certainty what we're doing with our lifes. We just go with the tide, turning left or right when things seems to match what we think we want..

greggman 10y ago

I've been out of work for 3 years (by choice). I haven't found this way to fill my void outside of work better. I'm not sure jumping in the deep end and assuming people will find a way is the right path for everyone. I've done a lot of open source in that time but, at least for me that's not enough. I don't have an SO and so effectively I have zero companionship. Work often filled that void, especially with lots of overtime on teams. My closest friends are all x-coworkers. The last job though, for whatever reason, provided none of that, co-workers never became friends outside of work, one of the reasons I left. I'm not retired though (don't have funds for that) so eventually I'll get a job again. In the meantime there's all the obvious solutions like volunteering, going to meetups, organizing meetups, etc. For various reasons I haven't pursued those yet

neap24 10y ago

This is why I love teaching. You get a "mini-retirement" for the two summer months every year. After a few years, this gets old and you are forced to find new hobbies to fill the time. Nowadays, I look forward to my summers off precisely because I can start working on my hobbies/side projects for 30 hours a week.

TwiztidK 10y ago
I once heard someone say that there are three reasons they love being a teacher: June, July, and August.

chipsambos 10y ago

>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.” That is why it's important not anchor your identity in the transient. The world is full of people who do and it invariably hits them hard when things inevitably change: Mothers with empty nest syndrome, ageing people clinging desperately to their youthful good looks, jobless and retired people who find their self-esteem smashed and consider themselves useless. It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself.

ambicapter 10y ago
What can you anchor yourself which Isn't transient?
- knicholes 10y ago
  I like to anchor myself on being an honest person.
  - lunchTime42 10y ago
    That was transcendent ;)
theandrewbailey 10y ago
> It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself. Most of those things ARE transient. Most of the retirees anymore had their jobs for life (ok, 30+ years). As in, within a single company. After that long, employment is taken for granted, and it's hard to see oneself not being on the job.
- 10y ago

mcshicks 10y ago

I took an early retirement a few years ago, this is good advice about cutting back work, but for many people it's hard to get there employer to agree to fewer hours. There are many reasons for this, not the least of which the way many employers control cost is buy just limiting headcount. Another option, which I took is to take a leave of absence. I took off 4 months, the most I could swing about 5 years before I finally quit. Certainly for 4 months I didn't feel bored at all. For me at least, two years now I'm not bored at all. For people interested in learning new technology, in my opinion there has never been a better time. Also agree with the need to develop social connections outside of work. That could be friends you share a hobby or activity with, a volunteer group or cause you believe in, or anything else. Another option is finding part time work after you quit. I had a close childhood friend who asked me to help him with a project. We live in different parts of the country and previously we communicated at best once a year or so. Now even when there's not much to do we talk at least once a month. I also recommend reading up on the subject before you do. This is reading list I went through leading up to my retirement. While much of the financial advice maybe out of date, some of it covers just the psychological aspects. http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rebooks.html http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/rebooks.html