10 ms·

"I saw how they spent their time and didn’t find it interesting or very rewarding." it may not be interesting but I'm sure it's quite rewarding (as in money/wea

by pound 10y ago

"I saw how they spent their time and didn’t find it interesting or very rewarding." it may not be interesting but I'm sure it's quite rewarding (as in money/wealth)

overcast 10y ago
In my thirties now, after spending my twenties in pursuit of wealth. I can tell you unequivocally, as cliche as it is, accumulating money/wealth is not rewarding. Of course one needs a certain amount to be comfortable, but obtaining more has absolutely not made me a happier person. Relationships, interesting purposeful work, and travel has been what I have found to be the most rewarding. Basically experiences over things.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  I started out from a very young age focused mostly on finding sources of interesting/purposeful work that provide enough wage to afford a comfortable life, but not luxury. I have not been able to find meaningful/purposeful work in any organization. The life lessons I've learned can basically be summarized as: there is no such thing as purposeful work for which you are paid a wage, and businesses rarely extract meaningful labor out of you. Businesses are rarely punished for being unproductive, and most effort within any organization is spent intensely focused on politics, both internal and external, to ensure the business can create Dutch books and survive any possible outcome without needing to actually be productive. The closer you get to pure knowledge work, the worse all of these effects become. In my field, machine learning and statistics, it is about as bad as it can possibly be. Because policy is ostensibly supposed to be based on evidence and sound, statistical reasoning, and it's very fashionable right now to try to characterize all aspects of business planning as if they are "data driven", all that it means is that the corporate politicians now hawkishly focus on statistics/machine learning and "science" as the means by which they control politics. It unequivocally does not mean that businesses are actually shifting to truly be more scientific in their decision making, nor are they less wasteful, less driven by prestige or politics, less hyper-focused on short-term thinking, etc. If anything, firms are worse on all of these dimensions, and waste vast sums of money setting up big data infrastructure than truly does nothing but give glossy data visualization facades that decisions are somehow being made based on hard data. What it has taught me is somewhat of the inverse of what you say. I agree that pursuit of material wealth and power is uninteresting and highly unfulfilling. The problem is that pursuit of meaningful work turns out to be even more uninteresting and even more unfulfilling and you simply end up poorer and sounding like a burnt out crank. You are probably better off (if you can; I unfortunately cannot) sublimating away any desire for creative, autonomous, meaningful, purposeful, or interesting work -- simply delete that from your genome with hardcore unhealthy repression. Then try to amass enough wealth doing horrible, horrible politics as you can to retire early, start your own small business, or something else where you are personally in charge of what you do and where you don't have a need for anyone else to pay you for your labor output. The one part I will agree with you on is to definitely value relationships. Whether you are burning yourself out chasing the carrot of so-called meaningful work, or you are killing yourself slowly playing political games to get promotions and money, do not allow either toxin to infiltrate your personal life, and really try to slow your brain down and savor the moments you have with family, friends, and loved ones.
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    start your own company.
    - p4wnc6 10y ago
      If all the other companies and people couldn't figure out how to be companies that aren't brainfucked by politics, I think it would be considerable hubris for me to believe that I somehow know better and somehow can get into business without becoming brainfucked by politics. I think business == brainfucked by politics. That is literally what you are compensated for. For some, it's a trade-off they are happy to make, and can be very lucrative. But you can't kid yourself that there is any possible way to pursue success in the business world, whether on your own by starting a company or by working up the ranks elsewhere, that does not ultimately bottom out at being paid solely for your ability to endure being brainfucked by politics.
    - thesagan 10y ago
      This oft-quoted piece of advice is starting to sound like "have you found Jesus yet?" to my ears. Yes, yes – we know, we know that's an option worth considering (if feasible).
  - overcast 10y ago
    I don't want to be wasting my youth burning myself out in the pursuit. Do things while you have the energy to now. You could be dead tomorrow walking across the street.
- Swizec 10y ago
  > Relationships, interesting purposeful work, and travel has been what I have found to be the most rewarding. Basically experiences over things. And how big does your fuck you fund and/or financial stability in general have to be to be able to say No to uninteresting unpurposeful work? And how much do you need to both pay for travel and to be able to afford the time to travel? Wealth accumulation is freedom accumulation. You need the freedom to lead a purposeful rewarding life. You can't do that, if your days are consumed by struggling to make ends meet. A lot of modern inspiremotivationstuff neglects that part. Would your thirties be as fulfilling as they are if you hadn't spent your twenties in pursuit of wealth? I'd guess not.
  - itchyouch 10y ago
    There's a continuum. Paycheck to Paycheck - getting fired mean, being unable to pay for housing & food. 3 months savings - bills can be paid at once, a lay off puts pressure on one to really jump on the job search. 1 years savings - termination doesn't scare one, but thinking about taking a 1 year sabbatical, while nice, also means that torwards the end of the sabbatical, one must hope /plan apply for jobs after some period of 6-11 months or so. Strict budgeting is paramount. 5 years savings - termination and paying bills has no day-to-day thoughts. One can ponder of maybe dumping that savings into a startup, but if the startup doesn't pan out, one may be in one of the aforementioned states. 10 years savings - one can consider never working again if they reduce their draw down rate to last indefinitely. 20+ years savings - One could try a startup, lose 10 years of savings, and really not worry about anything. I think people wouldn't necessarily have a problem working indefinitely, if they could participate in a lifestyle business where hours are flexible, workdays are shorter, weekends are longer, commutes are minimized or optional, vacations are plentiful and the pay is above average. For a lot of programmers at large institutions, this is pretty possible if one can find the right boss and company with policies that allow for this. how long these kinds of cushy positions will last is the question.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  > In my thirties now, after spending my twenties in pursuit of wealth. I can tell you unequivocally, as cliche as it is, accumulating money/wealth is not rewarding. As someone a hair's breath away from 40 I can tell you it is if you don't have it. I see my body starting to creak and groan, witness Silicon Valley's blatant ageism, take an honest look at my ability to continue to earn into my 60s, take a frightened peek at my wholly inadequate retirement account, and find myself wishing I did more of that "pursuit of wealth" and less "travel and purpose" earlier on in my life. I'll be happy to do "enlightenment and purpose" when I'm confident that I won't have to choose between dog food and back medicine when I inevitably get old.
  - overcast 10y ago
    The tech world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley, as much as they'd like you to believe. There is TONS of opportunities in this world. Start your own company if you aren't happy with any of them. Thirty-nine is not the end of the road.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Given the completely asinine cost of living, most tech jobs in other parts of the US will net you more money in the bank at the end of the month.
      - overcast 10y ago
        Agreed, and the reason I am sitting here in Upstate New York, making way more(cost of living) adjusted than I would there. Though it can be argued you're paying the experience tax working for big names there. But it doesn't interest me.
        ryandrake 10y ago
        I've worked both in and out of Silicon Valley and you can't beat SV in terms of "opportunity risk". Most places outside of the area are one-horse towns when it comes to tech: If you lose your job there's nothing else there, you're picking up your family and moving to another city at least, maybe another state. I lived on the east coast for years, and I'd happily move back in a heartbeat, but I'd be a nervous wreck every time it looked like another downturn was coming and I might have to scramble to find another job.
- douche 10y ago
  There's a continuum between hand-to-mouth and fuck-you-money. The closer you can get to the latter, the better.
  - pc86 10y ago
    I think that depends on your definition of FYM. For me it's $1.3MM. For others it might be $5MM or $750k. I make a good living for my area but have nowhere near $1.3MM liquid or even my entire net worth. Getting and extra $500k would not give me any peace of mind or security that I don't already have.
    - douche 10y ago
      That's all relative. For me, I could go home and retire off of 500K, just drawing off the dividends, but I'm from an area that is exceptionally cheap in the US.
    - shostack 10y ago
      Getting an extra $500k would put you ~38% closer to your goal of $1.3M. So to say it wouldn't give you any peace of mind or security that you don't already have seems odd as it would put you SIGNIFICANTLY closer to your goal of FYM, which presumably would bring you peace of mind and security that you don't have now, and reduce the risk you would not eventually get there.
    - danieltillett 10y ago
      This is a rather precise number - why $1.3M?
      - embwbam 10y ago
        I can't speak for the parent, but that's about my target too. $1.3M / 300 (safe draw-down rate) = $4333/mo. Our family spends $4500 / mo in Salt Lake City to live comfortably. That doesn't include travel or expensive toys, but it would be enough to make it much easier for me to go off income for long periods to take bigger risks.
emorse 10y ago
He's talking about how he personally found it.

by pound 10y ago

"I saw how they spent their time and didn’t find it interesting or very rewarding." it may not be interesting but I'm sure it's quite rewarding (as in money/wealth)

overcast 10y ago

In my thirties now, after spending my twenties in pursuit of wealth. I can tell you unequivocally, as cliche as it is, accumulating money/wealth is not rewarding. Of course one needs a certain amount to be comfortable, but obtaining more has absolutely not made me a happier person. Relationships, interesting purposeful work, and travel has been what I have found to be the most rewarding. Basically experiences over things.

p4wnc6 10y ago
I started out from a very young age focused mostly on finding sources of interesting/purposeful work that provide enough wage to afford a comfortable life, but not luxury. I have not been able to find meaningful/purposeful work in any organization. The life lessons I've learned can basically be summarized as: there is no such thing as purposeful work for which you are paid a wage, and businesses rarely extract meaningful labor out of you. Businesses are rarely punished for being unproductive, and most effort within any organization is spent intensely focused on politics, both internal and external, to ensure the business can create Dutch books and survive any possible outcome without needing to actually be productive. The closer you get to pure knowledge work, the worse all of these effects become. In my field, machine learning and statistics, it is about as bad as it can possibly be. Because policy is ostensibly supposed to be based on evidence and sound, statistical reasoning, and it's very fashionable right now to try to characterize all aspects of business planning as if they are "data driven", all that it means is that the corporate politicians now hawkishly focus on statistics/machine learning and "science" as the means by which they control politics. It unequivocally does not mean that businesses are actually shifting to truly be more scientific in their decision making, nor are they less wasteful, less driven by prestige or politics, less hyper-focused on short-term thinking, etc. If anything, firms are worse on all of these dimensions, and waste vast sums of money setting up big data infrastructure than truly does nothing but give glossy data visualization facades that decisions are somehow being made based on hard data. What it has taught me is somewhat of the inverse of what you say. I agree that pursuit of material wealth and power is uninteresting and highly unfulfilling. The problem is that pursuit of meaningful work turns out to be even more uninteresting and even more unfulfilling and you simply end up poorer and sounding like a burnt out crank. You are probably better off (if you can; I unfortunately cannot) sublimating away any desire for creative, autonomous, meaningful, purposeful, or interesting work -- simply delete that from your genome with hardcore unhealthy repression. Then try to amass enough wealth doing horrible, horrible politics as you can to retire early, start your own small business, or something else where you are personally in charge of what you do and where you don't have a need for anyone else to pay you for your labor output. The one part I will agree with you on is to definitely value relationships. Whether you are burning yourself out chasing the carrot of so-called meaningful work, or you are killing yourself slowly playing political games to get promotions and money, do not allow either toxin to infiltrate your personal life, and really try to slow your brain down and savor the moments you have with family, friends, and loved ones.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  start your own company.
  - p4wnc6 10y ago
    If all the other companies and people couldn't figure out how to be companies that aren't brainfucked by politics, I think it would be considerable hubris for me to believe that I somehow know better and somehow can get into business without becoming brainfucked by politics. I think business == brainfucked by politics. That is literally what you are compensated for. For some, it's a trade-off they are happy to make, and can be very lucrative. But you can't kid yourself that there is any possible way to pursue success in the business world, whether on your own by starting a company or by working up the ranks elsewhere, that does not ultimately bottom out at being paid solely for your ability to endure being brainfucked by politics.
  - thesagan 10y ago
    This oft-quoted piece of advice is starting to sound like "have you found Jesus yet?" to my ears. Yes, yes – we know, we know that's an option worth considering (if feasible).
- overcast 10y ago
  I don't want to be wasting my youth burning myself out in the pursuit. Do things while you have the energy to now. You could be dead tomorrow walking across the street.
Swizec 10y ago
> Relationships, interesting purposeful work, and travel has been what I have found to be the most rewarding. Basically experiences over things. And how big does your fuck you fund and/or financial stability in general have to be to be able to say No to uninteresting unpurposeful work? And how much do you need to both pay for travel and to be able to afford the time to travel? Wealth accumulation is freedom accumulation. You need the freedom to lead a purposeful rewarding life. You can't do that, if your days are consumed by struggling to make ends meet. A lot of modern inspiremotivationstuff neglects that part. Would your thirties be as fulfilling as they are if you hadn't spent your twenties in pursuit of wealth? I'd guess not.
- itchyouch 10y ago
  There's a continuum. Paycheck to Paycheck - getting fired mean, being unable to pay for housing & food. 3 months savings - bills can be paid at once, a lay off puts pressure on one to really jump on the job search. 1 years savings - termination doesn't scare one, but thinking about taking a 1 year sabbatical, while nice, also means that torwards the end of the sabbatical, one must hope /plan apply for jobs after some period of 6-11 months or so. Strict budgeting is paramount. 5 years savings - termination and paying bills has no day-to-day thoughts. One can ponder of maybe dumping that savings into a startup, but if the startup doesn't pan out, one may be in one of the aforementioned states. 10 years savings - one can consider never working again if they reduce their draw down rate to last indefinitely. 20+ years savings - One could try a startup, lose 10 years of savings, and really not worry about anything. I think people wouldn't necessarily have a problem working indefinitely, if they could participate in a lifestyle business where hours are flexible, workdays are shorter, weekends are longer, commutes are minimized or optional, vacations are plentiful and the pay is above average. For a lot of programmers at large institutions, this is pretty possible if one can find the right boss and company with policies that allow for this. how long these kinds of cushy positions will last is the question.
ryandrake 10y ago
> In my thirties now, after spending my twenties in pursuit of wealth. I can tell you unequivocally, as cliche as it is, accumulating money/wealth is not rewarding. As someone a hair's breath away from 40 I can tell you it is if you don't have it. I see my body starting to creak and groan, witness Silicon Valley's blatant ageism, take an honest look at my ability to continue to earn into my 60s, take a frightened peek at my wholly inadequate retirement account, and find myself wishing I did more of that "pursuit of wealth" and less "travel and purpose" earlier on in my life. I'll be happy to do "enlightenment and purpose" when I'm confident that I won't have to choose between dog food and back medicine when I inevitably get old.
- overcast 10y ago
  The tech world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley, as much as they'd like you to believe. There is TONS of opportunities in this world. Start your own company if you aren't happy with any of them. Thirty-nine is not the end of the road.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Given the completely asinine cost of living, most tech jobs in other parts of the US will net you more money in the bank at the end of the month.
    - overcast 10y ago
      Agreed, and the reason I am sitting here in Upstate New York, making way more(cost of living) adjusted than I would there. Though it can be argued you're paying the experience tax working for big names there. But it doesn't interest me.
      - ryandrake 10y ago
        I've worked both in and out of Silicon Valley and you can't beat SV in terms of "opportunity risk". Most places outside of the area are one-horse towns when it comes to tech: If you lose your job there's nothing else there, you're picking up your family and moving to another city at least, maybe another state. I lived on the east coast for years, and I'd happily move back in a heartbeat, but I'd be a nervous wreck every time it looked like another downturn was coming and I might have to scramble to find another job.
douche 10y ago
There's a continuum between hand-to-mouth and fuck-you-money. The closer you can get to the latter, the better.
- pc86 10y ago
  I think that depends on your definition of FYM. For me it's $1.3MM. For others it might be $5MM or $750k. I make a good living for my area but have nowhere near $1.3MM liquid or even my entire net worth. Getting and extra $500k would not give me any peace of mind or security that I don't already have.
  - douche 10y ago
    That's all relative. For me, I could go home and retire off of 500K, just drawing off the dividends, but I'm from an area that is exceptionally cheap in the US.
  - shostack 10y ago
    Getting an extra $500k would put you ~38% closer to your goal of $1.3M. So to say it wouldn't give you any peace of mind or security that you don't already have seems odd as it would put you SIGNIFICANTLY closer to your goal of FYM, which presumably would bring you peace of mind and security that you don't have now, and reduce the risk you would not eventually get there.
  - danieltillett 10y ago
    This is a rather precise number - why $1.3M?
    - embwbam 10y ago
      I can't speak for the parent, but that's about my target too. $1.3M / 300 (safe draw-down rate) = $4333/mo. Our family spends $4500 / mo in Salt Lake City to live comfortably. That doesn't include travel or expensive toys, but it would be enough to make it much easier for me to go off income for long periods to take bigger risks.

emorse 10y ago

He's talking about how he personally found it.