5 ms·

Oof? Every other day on HackerNews I see a new post about the dearth of women in tech and how dire the "shortage" is. If there are substantially fewer women in

Oof? Every other day on HackerNews I see a new post about the dearth of women in tech and how dire the "shortage" is. If there are substantially fewer women in tech, why is it unreasonable to think there are practically no skilled female hackers? (And note that when I use the term 'hacker' I'm referring to the illegal, blackhat variety, not the 'I turned my oven into a WiFi hotspot!' kind)

mikeash 10y ago
Two reasons come to mind. First, "there aren't many" is vastly different statement from "there aren't any." It's not clear which category "I've never met" falls into, but it's easy to take it the wrong way. Second, that whole thing is completely unnecessary. The answer could end at "I'm a man" and be done. He seems to feel a need not only to state his maleness, but to point out that the question is stupid because it's not possible for him to be a women given his skill.
- cloakandswagger 10y ago
  I didn't think it was too irrelevant. He resolves the question of his gender, and then responds with his own personal observation that skilled female hackers are a rarity. Why is there such an embargo on talking about the differences between genders? The only times it is permissible is if you're talking about how women are either superior or discriminated against in some respect.
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    One reason, perhaps, is that too many "differences between genders" discussions (whether it's from one side or the other) devolve into unhelpful discussions about confirmation-bias style "superiority" or "discrimination" and the like. Discussions that try to honestly determine more fact-based reasons for the differences (whether it be biological reasons or social constructs) are rather rare. In this case, that observation was part of a "I have strong hacking skills" boast. So more "oof" for the awful overall tone. I personally suspect a bit of Dunning–Kruger here. My hunch is, while it is true that women in infosec are rare, there probably are women in infosec that have quite a bit stronger skillset than this guy.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I wonder what institutional barriers keep women from hacking. As lack of interest is often dismissed as an explanation.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I'm sure lack of interest is a big reason, but that just changes the question to, why is there a lack of interest? Personally, I think it's because so much of this activity happens online, and online communities are still often extremely misogynistic. Women interested in participating in such communities often have to hide who they are lest they be faced with an endless cavalcade of "tits or gtfo" and unsolicited dick pictures and other aggressive behavior.
  - eximius 10y ago
    Regardless of whether it is a valid reason for fewer women in tech, I think men are far more prone to destructive rebellion that can lead to criminal hacking. So, at least in that respect, females may just be less interested in the destructive hacking arts and more interested in constructive hacking.
EthanHeilman 10y ago
>If there are substantially fewer women in tech, why is it unreasonable to think there are practically no skilled female hackers? It is true that there are few women in tech in the US and the UK, but this is not a general rule and may not hold in the area of network exploitation (breaking into peoples networks and computers without permission). For instance in India "15.8% of engineering and technology undergraduates in the UK are female.(4) Compare with India: where over 30% of engineering students are women on engineering courses account for over 30% of the students.(5)"[0]. and China "In China, 40% of engineers are women and in the USSR of the 1980s, women accounted for 58% of the engineering workforce." [1] >(And note that when I use the term 'hacker' I'm referring to the illegal, blackhat variety, not the 'I turned my oven into a WiFi hotspot!' kind) Given the enormous government investment in network intrusion capabilities I would guess many of the more skilled hackers work in intelligence and military orgs. Israel, which have a fairly gender balanced military, is a leader in the area of network exploitation. Given that 65% of Israeli women serve in the military and only 3% of combat roles in the IDF are filled by women it is likely that women constitute a large percentage of intelligence roles. For instance the IDF's Unit8200 (tasked with SIGINT and likely "cyberwar" duties) and thought to be responsible for Stuxnet has a large number of women[2]. I would imagine that some of them are quite skilled at breaking into networks. GCHQ which is also considered quite good at network exploitation is more gender balanced than the tech community in the US. It is hard to determine from public sources how many women are involved in "hackish" activities at GCHQ. "[women] comprise only 29% of new entrants to GCHQ" [3] Mathematics is a big feeder to the Cryptologic world (as much of cryptography is math) and within the US math is much more gender balanced than engineering (between 40-50%[4]). It is often said that: "In particular, the National Security Agency (NSA) is the largest employer of mathematicians in the United States, and perhaps the world. Among other things, the NSA needs mathematicians to help create and break codes, analyze intelligence data, and perform signal analysis"[5]. Anecdotally many academic cryptographers are female. The Snowden documents show that at the NSA people move between jobs and duties learning new skills and sharing their current expertise. I would expect there are quite a few female cryptoanalysts who got interested in network exploitation especially given the enormous utility that mathematics and cryptanalysis can bring to the table. [0]: http://www.wes.org.uk/statistics http://www.wes.org.uk/statistics [1]: http://www.paristechreview.com/2010/09/29/why-more-women-engineers/ http://www.paristechreview.com/2010/09/29/why-more-women-eng... [2]: http://fortune.com/2015/06/25/women-israeli-army-tech-training/ http://fortune.com/2015/06/25/women-israeli-army-tech-traini... [3]: WOMEN IN THE UK INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY: A report by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament [4]: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/launchings_09_09.html https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/laun... [5]: https://www.math.uh.edu/~tomforde/Web/Jobs.html https://www.math.uh.edu/~tomforde/Web/Jobs.html
awinder 10y ago
Because jumping from "women are under represented" to "and none of them are hackers" is quite the leap. I'll let you google how statistics work to figure out why that would be. I considered qualifying the statement but realized it should be a waste of time for any moderately educated person but apparently that was my bad. Oof!
brokenmachine 10y ago
That's not an unreasonable assumption, I just wonder how you'd tell what the gender is of an anonymous irc person who could be anywhere in the world? So I think that 99% of blackhats could be women. How can that be disputed? I doubt many of these blackhat types ever actually meet in person.

mikeash 10y ago

Two reasons come to mind. First, "there aren't many" is vastly different statement from "there aren't any." It's not clear which category "I've never met" falls into, but it's easy to take it the wrong way. Second, that whole thing is completely unnecessary. The answer could end at "I'm a man" and be done. He seems to feel a need not only to state his maleness, but to point out that the question is stupid because it's not possible for him to be a women given his skill.

cloakandswagger 10y ago
I didn't think it was too irrelevant. He resolves the question of his gender, and then responds with his own personal observation that skilled female hackers are a rarity. Why is there such an embargo on talking about the differences between genders? The only times it is permissible is if you're talking about how women are either superior or discriminated against in some respect.
- soundwave106 10y ago
  One reason, perhaps, is that too many "differences between genders" discussions (whether it's from one side or the other) devolve into unhelpful discussions about confirmation-bias style "superiority" or "discrimination" and the like. Discussions that try to honestly determine more fact-based reasons for the differences (whether it be biological reasons or social constructs) are rather rare. In this case, that observation was part of a "I have strong hacking skills" boast. So more "oof" for the awful overall tone. I personally suspect a bit of Dunning–Kruger here. My hunch is, while it is true that women in infosec are rare, there probably are women in infosec that have quite a bit stronger skillset than this guy.
cmdrfred 10y ago
I wonder what institutional barriers keep women from hacking. As lack of interest is often dismissed as an explanation.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I'm sure lack of interest is a big reason, but that just changes the question to, why is there a lack of interest? Personally, I think it's because so much of this activity happens online, and online communities are still often extremely misogynistic. Women interested in participating in such communities often have to hide who they are lest they be faced with an endless cavalcade of "tits or gtfo" and unsolicited dick pictures and other aggressive behavior.
- eximius 10y ago
  Regardless of whether it is a valid reason for fewer women in tech, I think men are far more prone to destructive rebellion that can lead to criminal hacking. So, at least in that respect, females may just be less interested in the destructive hacking arts and more interested in constructive hacking.

EthanHeilman 10y ago

>If there are substantially fewer women in tech, why is it unreasonable to think there are practically no skilled female hackers? It is true that there are few women in tech in the US and the UK, but this is not a general rule and may not hold in the area of network exploitation (breaking into peoples networks and computers without permission). For instance in India "15.8% of engineering and technology undergraduates in the UK are female.(4) Compare with India: where over 30% of engineering students are women on engineering courses account for over 30% of the students.(5)"[0]. and China "In China, 40% of engineers are women and in the USSR of the 1980s, women accounted for 58% of the engineering workforce." [1] >(And note that when I use the term 'hacker' I'm referring to the illegal, blackhat variety, not the 'I turned my oven into a WiFi hotspot!' kind) Given the enormous government investment in network intrusion capabilities I would guess many of the more skilled hackers work in intelligence and military orgs. Israel, which have a fairly gender balanced military, is a leader in the area of network exploitation. Given that 65% of Israeli women serve in the military and only 3% of combat roles in the IDF are filled by women it is likely that women constitute a large percentage of intelligence roles. For instance the IDF's Unit8200 (tasked with SIGINT and likely "cyberwar" duties) and thought to be responsible for Stuxnet has a large number of women[2]. I would imagine that some of them are quite skilled at breaking into networks. GCHQ which is also considered quite good at network exploitation is more gender balanced than the tech community in the US. It is hard to determine from public sources how many women are involved in "hackish" activities at GCHQ. "[women] comprise only 29% of new entrants to GCHQ" [3] Mathematics is a big feeder to the Cryptologic world (as much of cryptography is math) and within the US math is much more gender balanced than engineering (between 40-50%[4]). It is often said that: "In particular, the National Security Agency (NSA) is the largest employer of mathematicians in the United States, and perhaps the world. Among other things, the NSA needs mathematicians to help create and break codes, analyze intelligence data, and perform signal analysis"[5]. Anecdotally many academic cryptographers are female. The Snowden documents show that at the NSA people move between jobs and duties learning new skills and sharing their current expertise. I would expect there are quite a few female cryptoanalysts who got interested in network exploitation especially given the enormous utility that mathematics and cryptanalysis can bring to the table. [0]: http://www.wes.org.uk/statistics http://www.wes.org.uk/statistics [1]: http://www.paristechreview.com/2010/09/29/why-more-women-engineers/ http://www.paristechreview.com/2010/09/29/why-more-women-eng... [2]: http://fortune.com/2015/06/25/women-israeli-army-tech-training/ http://fortune.com/2015/06/25/women-israeli-army-tech-traini... [3]: WOMEN IN THE UK INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY: A report by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament [4]: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/launchings_09_09.html https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/laun... [5]: https://www.math.uh.edu/~tomforde/Web/Jobs.html https://www.math.uh.edu/~tomforde/Web/Jobs.html

awinder 10y ago

Because jumping from "women are under represented" to "and none of them are hackers" is quite the leap. I'll let you google how statistics work to figure out why that would be. I considered qualifying the statement but realized it should be a waste of time for any moderately educated person but apparently that was my bad. Oof!

brokenmachine 10y ago

That's not an unreasonable assumption, I just wonder how you'd tell what the gender is of an anonymous irc person who could be anywhere in the world? So I think that 99% of blackhats could be women. How can that be disputed? I doubt many of these blackhat types ever actually meet in person.