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20% of CS degrees are awarded to women, but they get only 10% of entry-level software jobs. Please stop blaming the pipeline for the difference. Interested, qu

20% of CS degrees are awarded to women, but they get only 10% of entry-level software jobs. Please stop blaming the pipeline for the difference. Interested, qualified women are being pushed away from the field by bias and attrition, and that's a problem we should be trying to solve.

extra88 10y ago
I'm sure there are problems with many hiring process and work environments that result in fewer women in those positions, However, where do the other 50% of CS degree-holding women end up if not in entry-level software jobs? If they have a greater tendency to go to graduate school or to take jobs that make use of their degree but don't fit the cookie-cutter definition of a software job, that's not a bad outcome. My impression is there are a lot of programming jobs where having a terrible work/life balance is expected. I'm a man and I would avoid such jobs. Perhaps women, including those who earn CS degrees, are statistically more likely than men to feel the way I do about work/life balance. The result would be fewer women working in the field without the environment being sexist or discriminatory.
- etjossem 10y ago
  I agree. Work/life balance is absolutely part of the problem - just like maternity leave and other work environment factors. All of this leads to attrition and a chilling effect on sourcing. But we should still be solving for bias at the interviewing stage.
tropo 10y ago
"pushed away" is so negative. How about "pulled away"? Maybe it isn't politically correct to desire being a stay-at-home mom, but it happens rather often. Sometimes this is an unexpected turn of events, with changing life priorities. Sometimes it is the goal right from the start. I met a woman in college who literally said she was getting her MRS degree. That is, she went to college to meet a suitable husband and become a "Mrs.", as in "Mrs. Doe". It happens. This is real. It's not a problem to be solved unless you have a negative attitude toward homemakers. People choose their own path in life. This might not meet your standard, but your standard might not maximize life satisfaction for everybody.
- etjossem 10y ago
  > I met a woman in college who literally said she was getting her MRS degree. Was she taking computer science? If we're going to talk anecdotes here, every computer science major I've ever met has done it either for the sunny career prospects or because they were genuinely interested in the subject matter - and usually both. I do not buy your premise that students are graduating from computer science in order to not have a career in it.
  - tropo 10y ago
    I can't go back and ask that woman, but my wife nearly did the same and was in fact in computer science. My wife: was capable in computer science, got through 3 years of a degree before kids interfered, was mildly interested in career prospects but very relieved to realize that I could fully support her, was mildly interested in the subject matter Had my wife taken another year to become pregnant, she'd have graduated. That would put her in your statistic as a woman who graduated but didn't end up in the field. As it is, she's in the "women who drop out of computer science" group, usually assumed to have been pushed out somehow. Actually graduating and having a career was kind of a "Plan B" thing, although my wife wasn't quite as deliberate as that other woman. I met another woman who dropped the career about a year after graduating in computer science from a near-top school. She went on leave to have a baby, then simply stayed home. She didn't need the money, so why be away from the adorable little baby? These women don't have the values that you evidently have. They aren't being pushed out. They are being pulled away by things that they value more. They don't have to comply with your value system.

extra88 10y ago

I'm sure there are problems with many hiring process and work environments that result in fewer women in those positions, However, where do the other 50% of CS degree-holding women end up if not in entry-level software jobs? If they have a greater tendency to go to graduate school or to take jobs that make use of their degree but don't fit the cookie-cutter definition of a software job, that's not a bad outcome. My impression is there are a lot of programming jobs where having a terrible work/life balance is expected. I'm a man and I would avoid such jobs. Perhaps women, including those who earn CS degrees, are statistically more likely than men to feel the way I do about work/life balance. The result would be fewer women working in the field without the environment being sexist or discriminatory.

etjossem 10y ago
I agree. Work/life balance is absolutely part of the problem - just like maternity leave and other work environment factors. All of this leads to attrition and a chilling effect on sourcing. But we should still be solving for bias at the interviewing stage.

tropo 10y ago

"pushed away" is so negative. How about "pulled away"? Maybe it isn't politically correct to desire being a stay-at-home mom, but it happens rather often. Sometimes this is an unexpected turn of events, with changing life priorities. Sometimes it is the goal right from the start. I met a woman in college who literally said she was getting her MRS degree. That is, she went to college to meet a suitable husband and become a "Mrs.", as in "Mrs. Doe". It happens. This is real. It's not a problem to be solved unless you have a negative attitude toward homemakers. People choose their own path in life. This might not meet your standard, but your standard might not maximize life satisfaction for everybody.

etjossem 10y ago
> I met a woman in college who literally said she was getting her MRS degree. Was she taking computer science? If we're going to talk anecdotes here, every computer science major I've ever met has done it either for the sunny career prospects or because they were genuinely interested in the subject matter - and usually both. I do not buy your premise that students are graduating from computer science in order to not have a career in it.
- tropo 10y ago
  I can't go back and ask that woman, but my wife nearly did the same and was in fact in computer science. My wife: was capable in computer science, got through 3 years of a degree before kids interfered, was mildly interested in career prospects but very relieved to realize that I could fully support her, was mildly interested in the subject matter Had my wife taken another year to become pregnant, she'd have graduated. That would put her in your statistic as a woman who graduated but didn't end up in the field. As it is, she's in the "women who drop out of computer science" group, usually assumed to have been pushed out somehow. Actually graduating and having a career was kind of a "Plan B" thing, although my wife wasn't quite as deliberate as that other woman. I met another woman who dropped the career about a year after graduating in computer science from a near-top school. She went on leave to have a baby, then simply stayed home. She didn't need the money, so why be away from the adorable little baby? These women don't have the values that you evidently have. They aren't being pushed out. They are being pulled away by things that they value more. They don't have to comply with your value system.