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But something is driving women out of CS programs (unless you buy the argument that women just aren't interested in programming). Steps that make the professio

But something is driving women out of CS programs (unless you buy the argument that women just aren't interested in programming). Steps that make the profession as a whole less biased against women, might also help to encourage more women to major in CS.

azinman2 10y ago
It's hard to break through a crowd where any feature is a near monopoly... when _all_ your colleagues are men then it's hard for a woman to feel completely comfortable and like they belong. Some will, many won't -- you can't definitively negate feeling of being an 'other.'
Spooky23 10y ago
If most are like mine was, they are awful. High stakes testing, unrealistic workloads, research professors who don't grok humans and incredibly cliquey ethnic divisions exaggerated by lots of foreign students.
mpweiher 10y ago
Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it trivially true from observation and all empirical data I can find (if you remove the absolute)
- mplewis 10y ago
  Because without data, it's a circular argument. "Women aren't interested in programming, so none of them go into programming professionally. Why don't women go into programming professionally? Because they aren't interested." Separate out whether women are interested from whether women are being forced out for other reasons (harassment, gender imbalance in the field, etc).
  - therealdrag0 10y ago
    Why are there less male elementary school teachers? Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested?
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested? Positive (for males) gender prejudice in a wide array of higher-status, better-compensated jobs drawing men disproportionately elsewhere. Which is kind of a mix of both of your options.
  - teamfrizz 10y ago
    There is literally nothing circular about that. You're just saying the same thing twice.
    - pmarreck 10y ago
      Yes, there is. Allow me to rephrase it using Boolean logic to elucidate: IF women aren't interested in programming, THEN none of them go into programming professionally. IF women don't go into programming professionally, THEN they aren't interested." I have 2 better questions to ask: 1) If fewer women than "the ideal" are interested in STEM, then why is that? 2) Why do we think a perfect 50/50 ratio across all fields is "the ideal," when "nature" might not deem it so? (note: this is NOT an "argument to nature")
  - teamfrizz 10y ago
    On the other hand, saying a gender imbalance in the field is causing a gensee imbalance in the field.... Come on.
  - collyw 10y ago
    They can't be forced out if they didn't start in the first place (because of lack of interest). When I was at University, there were way more guys studying engineering and CS. Were they forced out before they started?
- deleted 10y ago
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- MaysonL 10y ago
  Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, and App Camp for Girls refute your bs.
  - tropo 10y ago
    Grace Hopper might have rather been in charge of an aircraft carrier. Ada Lovelace might also have wanted to do other things. Opportunities were limited for women. Don't assume that computing was the first choice career for those women.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Grace Hopper might have rather been in charge of an aircraft carrier. [...] Opportunities were limited for women. Even had the Navy not had gender-restricted roles, the only reason Dr. Hopper got an exemption from physical requirements she did not meet was her strong background in math and physics that qualified her to fill the need for the computation project. Gender bias aside, she would never have gotten to command an aircraft carrier.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it insufficient to answer the question of whether sexism is the problem. Computer programming used to have a lot more women -- why did that change? If it was changing interest, what is the source of the gender imbalance in the change in interest? Certainly, the perception that there was gender bias in the field arose while the rate at which women were participating was dropping from its high -- was gender bias in the field part of the cause of disinterest?
  - tropo 10y ago
    That's backwards. We got rid of the gender bias. Very long ago, computer programming was seen as being like typing and/or secretarial work. It was seen as being unmanly. Compare with nursing and kindergarten teaching. A woman might get assigned to invent COBOL instead of being in charge of an aircraft carrier. Well, we got rid of the sexism. Happy now? Hmmm, guess not.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      Your comment amused me a bit, so I wanted to write something in response. I work in metal fabrication, our workshop specialises in structural steel, so we are part of the general construction industry. We call ourselves 'boilermakers', though I've never worked on a boiler. Anyway, in the 17 years I've been doing this on and off, I have met precisely 1 female boilermaker. And nobody cares. What I don't follow is why is gender imbalance in other industries seen as a problem but we never see any serious attempt to get more women in to the construction industry. Why does anyone care there are differences in numbers of men and women in various industries? Things change over time, fashions change. I think approaching these issues from the "we must correct this imbalance" is incorrect reasoning. And, lastly, if we do manage to level the playing field, what will gender identity become? A quote form the film Trainspotting: One thousand years from now, there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers. I'm willing to posit that strong gender roll identity is crucial for a healthy and resilient culture.
      - deleted 10y ago
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azinman2 10y ago

It's hard to break through a crowd where any feature is a near monopoly... when _all_ your colleagues are men then it's hard for a woman to feel completely comfortable and like they belong. Some will, many won't -- you can't definitively negate feeling of being an 'other.'

Spooky23 10y ago

If most are like mine was, they are awful. High stakes testing, unrealistic workloads, research professors who don't grok humans and incredibly cliquey ethnic divisions exaggerated by lots of foreign students.

mpweiher 10y ago

Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it trivially true from observation and all empirical data I can find (if you remove the absolute)

mplewis 10y ago
Because without data, it's a circular argument. "Women aren't interested in programming, so none of them go into programming professionally. Why don't women go into programming professionally? Because they aren't interested." Separate out whether women are interested from whether women are being forced out for other reasons (harassment, gender imbalance in the field, etc).
- therealdrag0 10y ago
  Why are there less male elementary school teachers? Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested? Positive (for males) gender prejudice in a wide array of higher-status, better-compensated jobs drawing men disproportionately elsewhere. Which is kind of a mix of both of your options.
- teamfrizz 10y ago
  There is literally nothing circular about that. You're just saying the same thing twice.
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    Yes, there is. Allow me to rephrase it using Boolean logic to elucidate: IF women aren't interested in programming, THEN none of them go into programming professionally. IF women don't go into programming professionally, THEN they aren't interested." I have 2 better questions to ask: 1) If fewer women than "the ideal" are interested in STEM, then why is that? 2) Why do we think a perfect 50/50 ratio across all fields is "the ideal," when "nature" might not deem it so? (note: this is NOT an "argument to nature")
- teamfrizz 10y ago
  On the other hand, saying a gender imbalance in the field is causing a gensee imbalance in the field.... Come on.
- collyw 10y ago
  They can't be forced out if they didn't start in the first place (because of lack of interest). When I was at University, there were way more guys studying engineering and CS. Were they forced out before they started?
deleted 10y ago
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MaysonL 10y ago
Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, and App Camp for Girls refute your bs.
- tropo 10y ago
  Grace Hopper might have rather been in charge of an aircraft carrier. Ada Lovelace might also have wanted to do other things. Opportunities were limited for women. Don't assume that computing was the first choice career for those women.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Grace Hopper might have rather been in charge of an aircraft carrier. [...] Opportunities were limited for women. Even had the Navy not had gender-restricted roles, the only reason Dr. Hopper got an exemption from physical requirements she did not meet was her strong background in math and physics that qualified her to fill the need for the computation project. Gender bias aside, she would never have gotten to command an aircraft carrier.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it insufficient to answer the question of whether sexism is the problem. Computer programming used to have a lot more women -- why did that change? If it was changing interest, what is the source of the gender imbalance in the change in interest? Certainly, the perception that there was gender bias in the field arose while the rate at which women were participating was dropping from its high -- was gender bias in the field part of the cause of disinterest?
- tropo 10y ago
  That's backwards. We got rid of the gender bias. Very long ago, computer programming was seen as being like typing and/or secretarial work. It was seen as being unmanly. Compare with nursing and kindergarten teaching. A woman might get assigned to invent COBOL instead of being in charge of an aircraft carrier. Well, we got rid of the sexism. Happy now? Hmmm, guess not.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    Your comment amused me a bit, so I wanted to write something in response. I work in metal fabrication, our workshop specialises in structural steel, so we are part of the general construction industry. We call ourselves 'boilermakers', though I've never worked on a boiler. Anyway, in the 17 years I've been doing this on and off, I have met precisely 1 female boilermaker. And nobody cares. What I don't follow is why is gender imbalance in other industries seen as a problem but we never see any serious attempt to get more women in to the construction industry. Why does anyone care there are differences in numbers of men and women in various industries? Things change over time, fashions change. I think approaching these issues from the "we must correct this imbalance" is incorrect reasoning. And, lastly, if we do manage to level the playing field, what will gender identity become? A quote form the film Trainspotting: One thousand years from now, there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers. I'm willing to posit that strong gender roll identity is crucial for a healthy and resilient culture.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

deleted 10y ago

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