4 ms·

>"Contrary to what we expected (and probably contrary to what you expected as well!), masking gender had no effect on interview performance." I've seen quite a

by Jemmeh 10y ago

>"Contrary to what we expected (and probably contrary to what you expected as well!), masking gender had no effect on interview performance." I've seen quite a few studies pointing out this "confidence gap" now. They have shown women to be less confident, and it shows in their actions and speaking patterns. I still hear these speaking patterns even in the voice modulated versions-- statements sounding like questions with the upward inflection at the end. Vocal fry. Lots of "uhm, well, erm" flustered speak. So it doesn't surprise me that even with a modulated voice these women still sound unsure of themselves and thus they still didn't interview as well. As women there are some actions we can take. It's good to be aware of these speaking patterns and try to break them--but ultimately there are so many of these patterns that show that the only real solution is to try to internalize confidence. It's easier said than done. And we can't ignore the fact that there are reasons outside of ourselves for why women are not as confident as men. It's not just an internal issue. While we can take some actions for ourselves, we should still be looking at the external reasons that caused the issue in the first place. Why are large amounts of women less confident compared to men? Let's tackle those issues, too. When women try to be confident, it can get frowned upon. A man being assertive is a leader, a woman is bossy. Women are quicker to hit walls for just how confident they're allowed to be before they get the "bossy/bitchy" label thrown at them. The below article makes good counterpoints for the confidence-gap, and provides sources to some studies regarding women and confidence. And I've seen women call each other bitchy/bossy, too. This is something that society as a whole needs to work on. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/23/female-confidence-gap-katty-kay-claire-shipman https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/23/female...

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jomamaxx 10y ago
"When women try to be confident, it can get frowned upon. A man being assertive is a leader, a woman is bossy. Women are quicker to hit walls for just how confident they're allowed to be before they get the "bossy/bitchy" label thrown at them." Confidence has nothing to being 'aggressive' or 'bitchy' or even necessarily 'assertive'. Confidence usually means a lack of fear or anxiety when dealing with tough situations, or the lack of enough hubris to stand up to the anxiety in such scenarios.
- Jemmeh 10y ago
  Let's say someone is confident enough to ask for a raise-- that can be seen as assertive. A man can be seen as a go-getter. But for women, that assertiveness can be seen as bitching or whining. One of the studies from the article covers this. Here is directly linked: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    I simply don't agree. I don't doubt there is a 'double standard' when it comes to how men and women are perceived in different scenarios, but 'confidence' is not going to be perceived as 'being bitchy'. So - yes - when a woman gets vocally assertive, commanding, dominant and dismissive - she can bee seen as a 'bitch' whereas a guy might be perceived as simply 'alpha'. However I would add that many guys who act like this are also considered 'jerks' or 'a-holes' - to be frank. But - when a woman asks for a raise - which possibly a sign of confidence - this is not going to be perceived by anyone as 'bitchy'. A woman who, when asked to explain her algorithm, does it with delight, assurance and poise - is not going to be seen as 'bitchy'. The issue of 'power signals' and 'alpha dominance' etc. I think is a whole separate issue from regular, day to day 'confidence' for most people. 95% of guys in the workforce are not aggressive the the point of being douche-bags or considered 'hard alphas' wherein their female counterparts might run the risk of being seen as 'bitches'. Many men who act in an overtly dominant manner actually lack confidence. If they were comfortable in their status they wouldn't need to burn any political capital by risking being a douche. If women are disproportionately likely to be 'less confident' than this may have a lot to do with why they are perceived such a way in leadership positions. FYI, the women that are by far the most 'confident' in business are those that have played team sports. They are used to winning, to losing, to coming together, the ups the downs - they are not 'thrown' by the small things and not afraid. They tend to be more comfortable in their own skins, and when they assume positions of responsibility they act what most of us would describe as 'more normally'. I think the issue of day to day 'confidence' and 'potentially being perceived as a bitch' are completely different things. I know way too many very confident women in business who wouldn't remotely be considered bitches by anyone.
mpweiher 10y ago
> "less confident" This is not a gendered issue. Men who act less confident are at least as disadvantaged. > "confidence / frowned upon" Also not primarily a gendered issue. Men who are not perceived as having the status to be confident get pounced on as hard or harder. This appears to have a lot to do with physical size. Tall men are "leaders", small men have a "napoleon complex". etc. Considering women are statistically shorter than men, I wonder if sex-discrimination is fully explained by height-discrimination. Or maybe even over-explained. See also: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/2004/08/short_guys_fini.html http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/2004/08/short_g... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination
- Jemmeh 10y ago
  Women in general have less confidence than men. (Study: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-pspp0000078.pdf http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-pspp0000078.pd...) That is a gender-specific gap in confidence. That doesn't mean that there are no men with less-than-average confidence out there. Nor does it mean that there are no men who have a hard time because of said lack of confidence.
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    > Women in general have less confidence than men. Women are also generally slower than men (I was once faster than the fastest woman on earth, and I am not a particularly fast man). Not winning 100m races against men is not a sign of gender discrimination, it is a sign that men are faster. So if men are better at being confident, and being confident is important, then that's just that. Women can try to learn to be more confident, but discrimination it ain't.
    - Jemmeh 10y ago
      That's exactly what my post said. It says women can work on internalizing confidence, but we should also try to figure out why large amounts of women have less confidence compared to men, and work on that too. Discrimination comes into play when women are frowned upon for being confident. For example when asking for a raise. A man can be seen as a go-getter. But for women, that assertiveness can be seen as bitching or whining. One of the studies from the article covers this. Here is directly linked: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
mason240 10y ago
That's why the President spoke last week about how we should be raising boys to have less confidence.
- Jemmeh 10y ago
  I'm not sure what you're referring to. Women can have more confidence without men having less confidence. It's not a finite resource.

by Jemmeh 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jomamaxx 10y ago

"When women try to be confident, it can get frowned upon. A man being assertive is a leader, a woman is bossy. Women are quicker to hit walls for just how confident they're allowed to be before they get the "bossy/bitchy" label thrown at them." Confidence has nothing to being 'aggressive' or 'bitchy' or even necessarily 'assertive'. Confidence usually means a lack of fear or anxiety when dealing with tough situations, or the lack of enough hubris to stand up to the anxiety in such scenarios.

Jemmeh 10y ago
Let's say someone is confident enough to ask for a raise-- that can be seen as assertive. A man can be seen as a go-getter. But for women, that assertiveness can be seen as bitching or whining. One of the studies from the article covers this. Here is directly linked: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  I simply don't agree. I don't doubt there is a 'double standard' when it comes to how men and women are perceived in different scenarios, but 'confidence' is not going to be perceived as 'being bitchy'. So - yes - when a woman gets vocally assertive, commanding, dominant and dismissive - she can bee seen as a 'bitch' whereas a guy might be perceived as simply 'alpha'. However I would add that many guys who act like this are also considered 'jerks' or 'a-holes' - to be frank. But - when a woman asks for a raise - which possibly a sign of confidence - this is not going to be perceived by anyone as 'bitchy'. A woman who, when asked to explain her algorithm, does it with delight, assurance and poise - is not going to be seen as 'bitchy'. The issue of 'power signals' and 'alpha dominance' etc. I think is a whole separate issue from regular, day to day 'confidence' for most people. 95% of guys in the workforce are not aggressive the the point of being douche-bags or considered 'hard alphas' wherein their female counterparts might run the risk of being seen as 'bitches'. Many men who act in an overtly dominant manner actually lack confidence. If they were comfortable in their status they wouldn't need to burn any political capital by risking being a douche. If women are disproportionately likely to be 'less confident' than this may have a lot to do with why they are perceived such a way in leadership positions. FYI, the women that are by far the most 'confident' in business are those that have played team sports. They are used to winning, to losing, to coming together, the ups the downs - they are not 'thrown' by the small things and not afraid. They tend to be more comfortable in their own skins, and when they assume positions of responsibility they act what most of us would describe as 'more normally'. I think the issue of day to day 'confidence' and 'potentially being perceived as a bitch' are completely different things. I know way too many very confident women in business who wouldn't remotely be considered bitches by anyone.

mpweiher 10y ago

> "less confident" This is not a gendered issue. Men who act less confident are at least as disadvantaged. > "confidence / frowned upon" Also not primarily a gendered issue. Men who are not perceived as having the status to be confident get pounced on as hard or harder. This appears to have a lot to do with physical size. Tall men are "leaders", small men have a "napoleon complex". etc. Considering women are statistically shorter than men, I wonder if sex-discrimination is fully explained by height-discrimination. Or maybe even over-explained. See also: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/2004/08/short_guys_fini.html http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/2004/08/short_g... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination

Jemmeh 10y ago
Women in general have less confidence than men. (Study: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-pspp0000078.pdf http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-pspp0000078.pd...) That is a gender-specific gap in confidence. That doesn't mean that there are no men with less-than-average confidence out there. Nor does it mean that there are no men who have a hard time because of said lack of confidence.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  > Women in general have less confidence than men. Women are also generally slower than men (I was once faster than the fastest woman on earth, and I am not a particularly fast man). Not winning 100m races against men is not a sign of gender discrimination, it is a sign that men are faster. So if men are better at being confident, and being confident is important, then that's just that. Women can try to learn to be more confident, but discrimination it ain't.
  - Jemmeh 10y ago
    That's exactly what my post said. It says women can work on internalizing confidence, but we should also try to figure out why large amounts of women have less confidence compared to men, and work on that too. Discrimination comes into play when women are frowned upon for being confident. For example when asking for a raise. A man can be seen as a go-getter. But for women, that assertiveness can be seen as bitching or whining. One of the studies from the article covers this. Here is directly linked: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

mason240 10y ago

That's why the President spoke last week about how we should be raising boys to have less confidence.

Jemmeh 10y ago
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Women can have more confidence without men having less confidence. It's not a finite resource.