6 ms·

I think, rather, that HN has a dominant point of view which tolerates small differences but otherwise will downvote and [EDIT: hellban doesn't work like I thoug

by jff 10y ago

I think, rather, that HN has a dominant point of view which tolerates small differences but otherwise will downvote and [EDIT: hellban doesn't work like I thought] anyone who isn't circumspect enough in voicing their different opinions. I definitely couch a lot of my comments in sarcasm or careful disclaimers to try and avoid getting downvoted, as I've seen what can happen if you say The Wrong Opinion too plainly.

tptacek 10y ago
HN doesn't "hellban" (or ban at all) people over opinions. Moreover, the two positions Dan singles out as uniformly against the prevailing sentiment on HN (anti-Snowden, pro-CFAA) happen to be positions I'm not too far from holding, and while I get downvotes for earnest comments about those topics, things generally level out pretty quickly. If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, you should consider how sincerely you hold those beliefs.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, People with less karma need to avoid downvotes and flags because it affects how they can use the site - it affects the rate limiting they get. (And because they don't know that they can email dang if they think they've been unfairly flagged.)
- jff 10y ago
  I thought you'd end up "dead" (hellbanned) if you get consistently voted down to negative scores. I don't know a lot about actual mechanisms of how karma and voting work on this site, though, so if I'm wrong about that I apologize and retract the "hellbanned" part of my earlier comment.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    No, that's not at all how it works. "Hellbanning" is a form of banning where the site takes steps to avoid tipping you off that you've been banned. It's ostensibly a defense against spammers and trolls, who will create new accounts after being banned. For the past couple years, bans on HN are announced publicly. They're not automatic; the moderators do it directly. It's not based on your karma.
    - dang 10y ago
      > bans on HN are announced publicly For the most part. We don't do so for spammers or (sometimes) serial trolls.
    - vox_mollis 10y ago
      Hellbanning exists in a subtler form, though. For instance, my account. Top-level comments that are literally seconds old are typically posted about 2/3 down the page. None of my votes appear to actually count. It's been this way for several months. I'm used to it, but it's still very annoying and I wish HN would actually acknowledge they do this.
- protomyth 10y ago
  > If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, you should consider how sincerely you hold those beliefs. I'm pretty sure that's not it at all[1]. I can see (and personally do these days) avoid[2] certain types of conversations because of all the down votes. It has nothing to do with not sincerely holding the belief, and it has everything to do with not wanting to expend the energy on comments that aren't actually going to be seen[3]. As you know, as a comment is down voted it turn grayer and grayer. Plus, if you're not as articulate as you wish you were, you are just going to feel frustrated that you couldn't get your point across. This board, for most, takes up free time, and people tend to want to enjoy their free time. 1) in fact, that statement does rankle the feathers a bit - I've heard a variation that was meant to silence people 2) not very successfully at times
Joeri 10y ago
I used to feel the same way about HN, as being an echo chamber, but my feelings have shifted somewhat. This community does not like negativity, especially towards others. If you come up with a positive sentiment that expresses your opinion, it is much more likely to be voted up. Of course, not all things can be dressed up in positivity, but many online forums suffer from an excess of needless negativity, and HN is a breath of fresh air in that respect.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Agree. I feel respected on HN although my opinions are somewhat unusual in a number of cases. There are sometimes where I get a number of initial downvotes, but tell myself it probably mostly newcomers from reddit who just got their downvote button. I chalk it down to HN being positive (and me being polite and not needlessly provocative), and I also try to help others who have been targeted by the downvote & flag squad as long as what they have said is somehow reasonable.
- bloodorange 10y ago
  If you suggest that HN has low levels of negativity compared to others sites, I should just avoid most other sites. I used to read reddit regularly and at one point the level of negativity was just too much for me and I've been happier since I have left the site for good. For a long time, I've been an avid HN reader. However, one day, months ago, I noticed that majority of posts in most threads I was reading on HN started with a variant of "You are wrong". It may be in some form that does not make it immediately apparent but once I noticed the pattern, it was hard to unsee it. After this, I just stop reading threads which have a lot of this and in general, I've found that the few threads that remain make for (relatively) pleasant reading. I haven't yet found something better than HN though. So, I chose to stick around for now.
  - Joeri 10y ago
    You're not wrong ;) But in a discussion where you have an upvote button, there are basically only two follow-ups to an assertion which remain on topic: "you're wrong", or "you're right, and also". Anyone who wants to +1 will just click the upvote button.
arethuza 10y ago
"HN has a dominant point of view" I have difficulties thinking of HN in the singular - from what I can tell it is a group of people with pretty different views on most things. I don't think people get downvoted for expressing different views - pretty sure the times I have been downvoted it is because I've said something crass, irrelevant or just plain wrong!
- dang 10y ago
  > I have difficulties thinking of HN in the singular - from what I can tell it is a group of people with pretty different views on most things It's such a relief to read this! Seems so obvious, but the trope of anthropomorphizing the community grows like weeds.
type0 10y ago
Sometimes I feel one needs to add <sarcasm> ... </sarcasm> because people just don't see it and will downvote you anyway.

by jff 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

HN doesn't "hellban" (or ban at all) people over opinions. Moreover, the two positions Dan singles out as uniformly against the prevailing sentiment on HN (anti-Snowden, pro-CFAA) happen to be positions I'm not too far from holding, and while I get downvotes for earnest comments about those topics, things generally level out pretty quickly. If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, you should consider how sincerely you hold those beliefs.

DanBC 10y ago
> If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, People with less karma need to avoid downvotes and flags because it affects how they can use the site - it affects the rate limiting they get. (And because they don't know that they can email dang if they think they've been unfairly flagged.)
jff 10y ago
I thought you'd end up "dead" (hellbanned) if you get consistently voted down to negative scores. I don't know a lot about actual mechanisms of how karma and voting work on this site, though, so if I'm wrong about that I apologize and retract the "hellbanned" part of my earlier comment.
- tptacek 10y ago
  No, that's not at all how it works. "Hellbanning" is a form of banning where the site takes steps to avoid tipping you off that you've been banned. It's ostensibly a defense against spammers and trolls, who will create new accounts after being banned. For the past couple years, bans on HN are announced publicly. They're not automatic; the moderators do it directly. It's not based on your karma.
  - dang 10y ago
    > bans on HN are announced publicly For the most part. We don't do so for spammers or (sometimes) serial trolls.
  - vox_mollis 10y ago
    Hellbanning exists in a subtler form, though. For instance, my account. Top-level comments that are literally seconds old are typically posted about 2/3 down the page. None of my votes appear to actually count. It's been this way for several months. I'm used to it, but it's still very annoying and I wish HN would actually acknowledge they do this.
protomyth 10y ago
> If you have a belief that can't survive HN downvotes, to the point where you'll hide it simply to avoid those votes, you should consider how sincerely you hold those beliefs. I'm pretty sure that's not it at all[1]. I can see (and personally do these days) avoid[2] certain types of conversations because of all the down votes. It has nothing to do with not sincerely holding the belief, and it has everything to do with not wanting to expend the energy on comments that aren't actually going to be seen[3]. As you know, as a comment is down voted it turn grayer and grayer. Plus, if you're not as articulate as you wish you were, you are just going to feel frustrated that you couldn't get your point across. This board, for most, takes up free time, and people tend to want to enjoy their free time. 1) in fact, that statement does rankle the feathers a bit - I've heard a variation that was meant to silence people 2) not very successfully at times

Joeri 10y ago

I used to feel the same way about HN, as being an echo chamber, but my feelings have shifted somewhat. This community does not like negativity, especially towards others. If you come up with a positive sentiment that expresses your opinion, it is much more likely to be voted up. Of course, not all things can be dressed up in positivity, but many online forums suffer from an excess of needless negativity, and HN is a breath of fresh air in that respect.

reitanqild 10y ago
Agree. I feel respected on HN although my opinions are somewhat unusual in a number of cases. There are sometimes where I get a number of initial downvotes, but tell myself it probably mostly newcomers from reddit who just got their downvote button. I chalk it down to HN being positive (and me being polite and not needlessly provocative), and I also try to help others who have been targeted by the downvote & flag squad as long as what they have said is somehow reasonable.
bloodorange 10y ago
If you suggest that HN has low levels of negativity compared to others sites, I should just avoid most other sites. I used to read reddit regularly and at one point the level of negativity was just too much for me and I've been happier since I have left the site for good. For a long time, I've been an avid HN reader. However, one day, months ago, I noticed that majority of posts in most threads I was reading on HN started with a variant of "You are wrong". It may be in some form that does not make it immediately apparent but once I noticed the pattern, it was hard to unsee it. After this, I just stop reading threads which have a lot of this and in general, I've found that the few threads that remain make for (relatively) pleasant reading. I haven't yet found something better than HN though. So, I chose to stick around for now.
- Joeri 10y ago
  You're not wrong ;) But in a discussion where you have an upvote button, there are basically only two follow-ups to an assertion which remain on topic: "you're wrong", or "you're right, and also". Anyone who wants to +1 will just click the upvote button.

arethuza 10y ago

"HN has a dominant point of view" I have difficulties thinking of HN in the singular - from what I can tell it is a group of people with pretty different views on most things. I don't think people get downvoted for expressing different views - pretty sure the times I have been downvoted it is because I've said something crass, irrelevant or just plain wrong!

dang 10y ago
> I have difficulties thinking of HN in the singular - from what I can tell it is a group of people with pretty different views on most things It's such a relief to read this! Seems so obvious, but the trope of anthropomorphizing the community grows like weeds.

type0 10y ago

Sometimes I feel one needs to add <sarcasm> ... </sarcasm> because people just don't see it and will downvote you anyway.