5 ms·

That is a pretty myopic thing to say. One of the biggest issues for the US higher ed system is that foreign students who receive an education here often can't s

by ak217 10y ago

That is a pretty myopic thing to say. One of the biggest issues for the US higher ed system is that foreign students who receive an education here often can't stay or have to face ridiculous hurdles. In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Address the inflation of university budgets at the source of the problem. Rejecting highly educated, successful foreign nationals who we have already invested money in and who want to stay here and be productive in the workforce is one of the stupidest things this country currently does. Rejecting this proposal because you think it's a bailout for universities is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

tassl 10y ago
As somebody that has gone through the whole process (MS, PhD, OPT, H1B, Green Card), granting green cards to diplomas of is a big mistake. While the current system adds some level of stress to the worker, I have yet to find (surely there are) a valid foreigner with some STEM degree that could not stay in the US if he wanted to. This is true for most "bad" students that I know. On the other hand, some students that trick the system (most of them, in my experience [1], chinese and indian) have had trouble to stay. The current system gives you up to 29 months in OPT after a STEM degree (if I recall correctly, 12 + 17). During that time you can work towards H1B and Green Card; while H1B is tight with a employer, you can change employers with it. Now, if the Green Card is given to any STEM diploma, you will have a mass of unprepared, unethical students applying for and obtaining diplomas they don't deserve (because obtaining a diploma is not that difficult in the US). And I do believe this will create tensions later on with nationals. [1] This is obviously biased. My experience in the university (and outside of it) is that there are networks that facilitate entry on universities, "success" in universities [2,3], and in interviews processes in companies. I have seen exams for the previous 10 years solved with detailed explanation; homeworks and all solutions for specific books solved, etc... with this only available to specific group. I have not seen this happening with people of other countries. [2] http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ [3] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-c...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jordanb 10y ago
Currently foreign students have to weigh the possibility that they won't be able to stay against the cost of the program. And nonetheless American programs are absolutely full of foreign nationals and this is especially true of grad programs which gives one an H1-B priority. If this program gets created universities will absolutely not have to address the inflation of their budgets because it'll be raining out of state tuition payers. If, on the other hand, universities went back to educating mostly local kids with tax subsidies then they'd have to face a stark reckoning about their mushrooming budgets and we may have to have a national discussion about education funding. None of this sounds good to Hillary Clinton so instead she'll just try to open the sluice gates wider.
throwawaysocks 10y ago
> In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. I think your parent was primarily referring to masters programs, not phd programs. FWIW I am pro-immigration in general, but I do worry about expensive diploma mill masters programs becoming a way for wealthy immigrants to buy preferential treatment. It's a legitimate concern with any "masters == green card" scheme. That said, anyone who opposes such a scheme for Ph.D. students or for highly quality masters programs is insane.
- jordanb 10y ago
  Because we have such a serious of shortage of people with PHDs? https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B9Hv9N6bi1w/V2WBuW96arI/AAAAAAAAExk/KyBUngeJYwEwMqLKZ_Zn_WyfOebhPrSGgCLcB/s1600/median%2Bscientist%2Bsalaries.png https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B9Hv9N6bi1w/V2WBuW96arI/AAAAAAAAE...
  - throwawaysocks 10y ago
    No, because as a nation we are actively investing in each funded Ph.D. we train. If we have too many PhD's then we should decrease the number of PhD's the federal government funds. But as my original parent observed, paying hundreds of thousands to train someone just to kick them out of the country is silly. (Also, I think downward pressure on PhD salaries has very little to do with over-supply, but that's for another article.)
- davidw 10y ago
  > FWIW I am pro-immigration in general, but I do worry about expensive diploma mill masters programs becoming a way for wealthy immigrants to buy preferential treatment. It's a legitimate concern with any "masters == green card" scheme. Of course the answer to that is probably to open things up more in general, so you're not creating these perverse incentives and special channels, but it's difficult to do that. People get incensed because they worked so hard to be born in the US and consequently don't think others should have the same opportunities. http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
adamnemecek 10y ago
> research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Maybe for PhD programs but I don't think that's that common for Masters.

by ak217 10y ago

tassl 10y ago

As somebody that has gone through the whole process (MS, PhD, OPT, H1B, Green Card), granting green cards to diplomas of is a big mistake. While the current system adds some level of stress to the worker, I have yet to find (surely there are) a valid foreigner with some STEM degree that could not stay in the US if he wanted to. This is true for most "bad" students that I know. On the other hand, some students that trick the system (most of them, in my experience [1], chinese and indian) have had trouble to stay. The current system gives you up to 29 months in OPT after a STEM degree (if I recall correctly, 12 + 17). During that time you can work towards H1B and Green Card; while H1B is tight with a employer, you can change employers with it. Now, if the Green Card is given to any STEM diploma, you will have a mass of unprepared, unethical students applying for and obtaining diplomas they don't deserve (because obtaining a diploma is not that difficult in the US). And I do believe this will create tensions later on with nationals. [1] This is obviously biased. My experience in the university (and outside of it) is that there are networks that facilitate entry on universities, "success" in universities [2,3], and in interviews processes in companies. I have seen exams for the previous 10 years solved with detailed explanation; homeworks and all solutions for specific books solved, etc... with this only available to specific group. I have not seen this happening with people of other countries. [2] http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ [3] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-c...

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jordanb 10y ago

Currently foreign students have to weigh the possibility that they won't be able to stay against the cost of the program. And nonetheless American programs are absolutely full of foreign nationals and this is especially true of grad programs which gives one an H1-B priority. If this program gets created universities will absolutely not have to address the inflation of their budgets because it'll be raining out of state tuition payers. If, on the other hand, universities went back to educating mostly local kids with tax subsidies then they'd have to face a stark reckoning about their mushrooming budgets and we may have to have a national discussion about education funding. None of this sounds good to Hillary Clinton so instead she'll just try to open the sluice gates wider.

throwawaysocks 10y ago

> In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. I think your parent was primarily referring to masters programs, not phd programs. FWIW I am pro-immigration in general, but I do worry about expensive diploma mill masters programs becoming a way for wealthy immigrants to buy preferential treatment. It's a legitimate concern with any "masters == green card" scheme. That said, anyone who opposes such a scheme for Ph.D. students or for highly quality masters programs is insane.

jordanb 10y ago
Because we have such a serious of shortage of people with PHDs? https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B9Hv9N6bi1w/V2WBuW96arI/AAAAAAAAExk/KyBUngeJYwEwMqLKZ_Zn_WyfOebhPrSGgCLcB/s1600/median%2Bscientist%2Bsalaries.png https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B9Hv9N6bi1w/V2WBuW96arI/AAAAAAAAE...
- throwawaysocks 10y ago
  No, because as a nation we are actively investing in each funded Ph.D. we train. If we have too many PhD's then we should decrease the number of PhD's the federal government funds. But as my original parent observed, paying hundreds of thousands to train someone just to kick them out of the country is silly. (Also, I think downward pressure on PhD salaries has very little to do with over-supply, but that's for another article.)
davidw 10y ago
> FWIW I am pro-immigration in general, but I do worry about expensive diploma mill masters programs becoming a way for wealthy immigrants to buy preferential treatment. It's a legitimate concern with any "masters == green card" scheme. Of course the answer to that is probably to open things up more in general, so you're not creating these perverse incentives and special channels, but it's difficult to do that. People get incensed because they worked so hard to be born in the US and consequently don't think others should have the same opportunities. http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

adamnemecek 10y ago

> research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Maybe for PhD programs but I don't think that's that common for Masters.