5 ms·

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic b

by jordanb 10y ago

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic bailout to the universities. STEM grad programs are already full of foreign nationals trying to get a slot in the advanced degree H1-B track. This would absolutely turbocharge that: buy a degree from whatever fourth rate American university for $xxx,xxx and value is less in the degree than the golden ticket that comes attached.

Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
America has an amazing ability to attract the most high-quality immigrants, and an even more amazing ability to screw this up. Just give a green card to whomever can get a sufficiently high SAT score. This would start an insanely powerful brain drain in America's favour.
- basch 10y ago
  can you imagine if countries had tried this instead of eugenics?
- crudbug 10y ago
  I have seen Asian students going to some third-level schools here and riding the job market with multi-level consulting scam ladder. Having an "Elite University Group" based upon research work/ NSF funding, can surely help in determining both, the right university pool and attractive STEM talent.
- defen 10y ago
  You don't think sufficiently motivated groups have figured out how to cheat on the SAT? http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-to-china-cheating-scandal-1453713163 http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-t... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/16/the-six-step-sat-cheating-operation-in-asia-and-how-to-stop-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/...
  - Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
    IQ scores are very stable across time. An IQ 140 immigrant would be worth the cost of several random tests. As this would cost vastly less than a largely-useless masters degree, I'm sure immigrants would be willing to pay for a harder-to-cheat test.
ak217 10y ago
That is a pretty myopic thing to say. One of the biggest issues for the US higher ed system is that foreign students who receive an education here often can't stay or have to face ridiculous hurdles. In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Address the inflation of university budgets at the source of the problem. Rejecting highly educated, successful foreign nationals who we have already invested money in and who want to stay here and be productive in the workforce is one of the stupidest things this country currently does. Rejecting this proposal because you think it's a bailout for universities is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
- tassl 10y ago
  As somebody that has gone through the whole process (MS, PhD, OPT, H1B, Green Card), granting green cards to diplomas of is a big mistake. While the current system adds some level of stress to the worker, I have yet to find (surely there are) a valid foreigner with some STEM degree that could not stay in the US if he wanted to. This is true for most "bad" students that I know. On the other hand, some students that trick the system (most of them, in my experience [1], chinese and indian) have had trouble to stay. The current system gives you up to 29 months in OPT after a STEM degree (if I recall correctly, 12 + 17). During that time you can work towards H1B and Green Card; while H1B is tight with a employer, you can change employers with it. Now, if the Green Card is given to any STEM diploma, you will have a mass of unprepared, unethical students applying for and obtaining diplomas they don't deserve (because obtaining a diploma is not that difficult in the US). And I do believe this will create tensions later on with nationals. [1] This is obviously biased. My experience in the university (and outside of it) is that there are networks that facilitate entry on universities, "success" in universities [2,3], and in interviews processes in companies. I have seen exams for the previous 10 years solved with detailed explanation; homeworks and all solutions for specific books solved, etc... with this only available to specific group. I have not seen this happening with people of other countries. [2] http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ [3] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-c...
droopyEyelids 10y ago
This makes me want to cry when I think of all the scummy cheating students I went to college with and the way my school refused to deal with their behavior.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- wwwwwwwwww 10y ago
  pretty much this. At my school it's an almost universal phenomenon among international students. They literally run a cheating cartel that shares completed labs, tests, and homework. They even have a guy that they buy to take their tests for them. the school doesn't take cheating very seriously - one time a guy was on his phone looking up answers in the middle of a test. the professor told him to put it away, and he did. a few minutes later he takes his phone back out and is looking up answers again. it really is despicable how light universities are on cheating
  - Eyas 10y ago
    This hurts quite a bit because of the correlation it seems to be making between international students and cheating. I do agree that degrees should mean something, which means anyone benefiting from such 'cheating cartel' should not reap the fruits of being called a degree holder of an institution. But a comment like this makes me wonder if this is how I am viewed as a non-citizen graduate of a 'good school' who performed well above average in their class. Credentials like a degree are never enough to prove someone's worth/skill, of course, but this comment seems to suggest I might be facing additional pressure to prove my worth because I'm foreign-born. I was not aware this might need to be something I should be cognizant of.
    - droopyEyelids 10y ago
      I actually thought of the one foreign student I knew that was a really hard worker when i wrote the original comment and almost decided not to write it. But I remembered seven scum-fucks to balance him out, and the group projects where I did all the work and their names went on the final product.
steego 10y ago
I love the idea of making it easy for highly skilled foreigners to job shop because it's in my interest that they are paid competitively. It also imports people who create value and bring in additional tax revenue. I'm hesitant about the idea of merely tying green cards to STEM degrees because it does seem like the sort of incentive to yield unintended consequences. What sort of protections will there be to make sure universities don't water down their STEM programs? However, calling this a gigantic bailout to universities is an obtuse way to characterize it. A bailout is when you provide financial assistance to a failed institution. That's not what's happening here. This is a program that would attach new value to a STEM degree from a US university. Universities would certainly experience a windfall as they will be able to charge a premium for STEM programs, but don't confuse windfalls with bailouts.
sologoub 10y ago
For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things. On the other hand, if the person is capable and can attract and sustain a lucrative career, they'll contribute to economy and taxes. As someone else mentioned in this thread - having the ability to job hop for foreign workers prevents the exploitative wages from sticking and reduces incentives for companies to substitute for cost reduction. H1-B was originally "meant" (a.k.a. sold) to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs...
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > H1-B was originally meant to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs... No, the people involved in making the decision knew enough basic economic to recognize that "filling gaps in supply for commodity X" and "reducing the market-clearing cost of commodity X" are exactly the same thing. It was sold as the former, because to general public that sounds better.
  - sologoub 10y ago
    Good point, will edit.
- DerekL 10y ago
  > For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things. Right. The danger is not a flood of bozos, because a green card is no guarantee of a high salary job. The actual problem is that as soon as a U.S. degree comes with a green card, the schools in America will jack up the tuition for foreign students. Two ways to solve this: we could offer the same deal for foreign schools, or require U.S. schools to charge the same tuition and fees to both foreign and domestic students.
  - naveen99 10y ago
amyjess 10y ago
Honestly, the only thing I'd change is to only do this for accredited universities, so people have to go through a real educational institution and not a degree mill like the University of Phoenix. Other than that, this is brilliant. Not only would it get more smart people into the country, but it would also make it much harder for companies to exploit foreign-born workers. Under the current H-1B system, a company can say "you're going to work 12 hours a day every day for substandard pay, and if you complain or step even an inch out of line, you get to go back to your home country". Green cards would put a stop to this exploitation.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Honestly, the only thing I'd change is to only do this for accredited universities, so people have to go through a real educational institution and not a degree mill like the University of Phoenix. University of Phoenix is an accredited university.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  Yeah, accredited by whom? I hereby accredit the University of Phoenix. What now?

by jordanb 10y ago

Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago

America has an amazing ability to attract the most high-quality immigrants, and an even more amazing ability to screw this up. Just give a green card to whomever can get a sufficiently high SAT score. This would start an insanely powerful brain drain in America's favour.

basch 10y ago
can you imagine if countries had tried this instead of eugenics?
crudbug 10y ago
I have seen Asian students going to some third-level schools here and riding the job market with multi-level consulting scam ladder. Having an "Elite University Group" based upon research work/ NSF funding, can surely help in determining both, the right university pool and attractive STEM talent.
defen 10y ago
You don't think sufficiently motivated groups have figured out how to cheat on the SAT? http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-to-china-cheating-scandal-1453713163 http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-t... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/16/the-six-step-sat-cheating-operation-in-asia-and-how-to-stop-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/...
- Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
  IQ scores are very stable across time. An IQ 140 immigrant would be worth the cost of several random tests. As this would cost vastly less than a largely-useless masters degree, I'm sure immigrants would be willing to pay for a harder-to-cheat test.

ak217 10y ago

That is a pretty myopic thing to say. One of the biggest issues for the US higher ed system is that foreign students who receive an education here often can't stay or have to face ridiculous hurdles. In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Address the inflation of university budgets at the source of the problem. Rejecting highly educated, successful foreign nationals who we have already invested money in and who want to stay here and be productive in the workforce is one of the stupidest things this country currently does. Rejecting this proposal because you think it's a bailout for universities is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

tassl 10y ago
As somebody that has gone through the whole process (MS, PhD, OPT, H1B, Green Card), granting green cards to diplomas of is a big mistake. While the current system adds some level of stress to the worker, I have yet to find (surely there are) a valid foreigner with some STEM degree that could not stay in the US if he wanted to. This is true for most "bad" students that I know. On the other hand, some students that trick the system (most of them, in my experience [1], chinese and indian) have had trouble to stay. The current system gives you up to 29 months in OPT after a STEM degree (if I recall correctly, 12 + 17). During that time you can work towards H1B and Green Card; while H1B is tight with a employer, you can change employers with it. Now, if the Green Card is given to any STEM diploma, you will have a mass of unprepared, unethical students applying for and obtaining diplomas they don't deserve (because obtaining a diploma is not that difficult in the US). And I do believe this will create tensions later on with nationals. [1] This is obviously biased. My experience in the university (and outside of it) is that there are networks that facilitate entry on universities, "success" in universities [2,3], and in interviews processes in companies. I have seen exams for the previous 10 years solved with detailed explanation; homeworks and all solutions for specific books solved, etc... with this only available to specific group. I have not seen this happening with people of other countries. [2] http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/ [3] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/ http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-c...

droopyEyelids 10y ago

This makes me want to cry when I think of all the scummy cheating students I went to college with and the way my school refused to deal with their behavior.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wwwwwwwwww 10y ago
pretty much this. At my school it's an almost universal phenomenon among international students. They literally run a cheating cartel that shares completed labs, tests, and homework. They even have a guy that they buy to take their tests for them. the school doesn't take cheating very seriously - one time a guy was on his phone looking up answers in the middle of a test. the professor told him to put it away, and he did. a few minutes later he takes his phone back out and is looking up answers again. it really is despicable how light universities are on cheating
- Eyas 10y ago
  This hurts quite a bit because of the correlation it seems to be making between international students and cheating. I do agree that degrees should mean something, which means anyone benefiting from such 'cheating cartel' should not reap the fruits of being called a degree holder of an institution. But a comment like this makes me wonder if this is how I am viewed as a non-citizen graduate of a 'good school' who performed well above average in their class. Credentials like a degree are never enough to prove someone's worth/skill, of course, but this comment seems to suggest I might be facing additional pressure to prove my worth because I'm foreign-born. I was not aware this might need to be something I should be cognizant of.
  - droopyEyelids 10y ago
    I actually thought of the one foreign student I knew that was a really hard worker when i wrote the original comment and almost decided not to write it. But I remembered seven scum-fucks to balance him out, and the group projects where I did all the work and their names went on the final product.

steego 10y ago

I love the idea of making it easy for highly skilled foreigners to job shop because it's in my interest that they are paid competitively. It also imports people who create value and bring in additional tax revenue. I'm hesitant about the idea of merely tying green cards to STEM degrees because it does seem like the sort of incentive to yield unintended consequences. What sort of protections will there be to make sure universities don't water down their STEM programs? However, calling this a gigantic bailout to universities is an obtuse way to characterize it. A bailout is when you provide financial assistance to a failed institution. That's not what's happening here. This is a program that would attach new value to a STEM degree from a US university. Universities would certainly experience a windfall as they will be able to charge a premium for STEM programs, but don't confuse windfalls with bailouts.

sologoub 10y ago

For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things. On the other hand, if the person is capable and can attract and sustain a lucrative career, they'll contribute to economy and taxes. As someone else mentioned in this thread - having the ability to job hop for foreign workers prevents the exploitative wages from sticking and reduces incentives for companies to substitute for cost reduction. H1-B was originally "meant" (a.k.a. sold) to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs...

dragonwriter 10y ago
> H1-B was originally meant to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs... No, the people involved in making the decision knew enough basic economic to recognize that "filling gaps in supply for commodity X" and "reducing the market-clearing cost of commodity X" are exactly the same thing. It was sold as the former, because to general public that sounds better.
- sologoub 10y ago
  Good point, will edit.
DerekL 10y ago
> For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things. Right. The danger is not a flood of bozos, because a green card is no guarantee of a high salary job. The actual problem is that as soon as a U.S. degree comes with a green card, the schools in America will jack up the tuition for foreign students. Two ways to solve this: we could offer the same deal for foreign schools, or require U.S. schools to charge the same tuition and fees to both foreign and domestic students.
- naveen99 10y ago

amyjess 10y ago

Honestly, the only thing I'd change is to only do this for accredited universities, so people have to go through a real educational institution and not a degree mill like the University of Phoenix. Other than that, this is brilliant. Not only would it get more smart people into the country, but it would also make it much harder for companies to exploit foreign-born workers. Under the current H-1B system, a company can say "you're going to work 12 hours a day every day for substandard pay, and if you complain or step even an inch out of line, you get to go back to your home country". Green cards would put a stop to this exploitation.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Honestly, the only thing I'd change is to only do this for accredited universities, so people have to go through a real educational institution and not a degree mill like the University of Phoenix. University of Phoenix is an accredited university.
umanwizard 10y ago
Yeah, accredited by whom? I hereby accredit the University of Phoenix. What now?