3 ms·

This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly

This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate... Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign. The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete. As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.

VLM 10y ago
At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.
- beagle3 10y ago
  And a company with this practice is going to have a hard time hiring anyone who can find a job elsewhere.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Still leads to a bunch of people getting screwed. Even if those people aren't good engineers, they still don't deserve to be fucked by the company.
    - beagle3 10y ago
      That's true of course. I was just remarking that baiting with a reasonable contract and then switching to a bad one looks, from an employee standpoint, much much worse than originally being offered a bad contract. I seriously research any job or contract or freelance offer before I take it, and things like this don't hide.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  It's pretty much the same issue, though. If you are desperate for a job, then of course sign whatever you need to. But if you're not, don't sign. One fairly large company I worked with tried to pull this nonsense on me. HR sent me a new contract to sign (which had unfavourable terms). I told them that I was already under contract and unless they were terminating my contract, I was not going to sign another one. They told me that I would be fired if I didn't sign it. So I marched down to the legal department and said, "HR tells me I will be fired if I don't sign this contract. Is that really what you want to do". Half an hour later I had an apology from HR. At least in Canada (where I worked) forcing someone to sign a contract under duress (being threatened with losing one's job) makes it not a contract. Legal knew very well that this was leading to lawsuit that they would lose and made the right choice. I'm not saying it will always work. I was once sued by an employer for breach of contract when I left despite following the terms of the contract perfectly. Some people/companies are just nasty. I was lucky in that my new employer had thousands of lawyers on staff and threw a couple their way, making my problem disappear. You need to understand your position. Things are not always fair. You will not win every battle. However, it is a good idea to avoid these kinds of things from the beginning if you can. Not every company is run like this. Vote with your feet. Work for companies that have good policies. And when you find one and you feel you can trust management, do what you can to stay there and make it successful. Good companies exist.

VLM 10y ago

At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.

beagle3 10y ago
And a company with this practice is going to have a hard time hiring anyone who can find a job elsewhere.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Still leads to a bunch of people getting screwed. Even if those people aren't good engineers, they still don't deserve to be fucked by the company.
  - beagle3 10y ago
    That's true of course. I was just remarking that baiting with a reasonable contract and then switching to a bad one looks, from an employee standpoint, much much worse than originally being offered a bad contract. I seriously research any job or contract or freelance offer before I take it, and things like this don't hide.
mikekchar 10y ago
It's pretty much the same issue, though. If you are desperate for a job, then of course sign whatever you need to. But if you're not, don't sign. One fairly large company I worked with tried to pull this nonsense on me. HR sent me a new contract to sign (which had unfavourable terms). I told them that I was already under contract and unless they were terminating my contract, I was not going to sign another one. They told me that I would be fired if I didn't sign it. So I marched down to the legal department and said, "HR tells me I will be fired if I don't sign this contract. Is that really what you want to do". Half an hour later I had an apology from HR. At least in Canada (where I worked) forcing someone to sign a contract under duress (being threatened with losing one's job) makes it not a contract. Legal knew very well that this was leading to lawsuit that they would lose and made the right choice. I'm not saying it will always work. I was once sued by an employer for breach of contract when I left despite following the terms of the contract perfectly. Some people/companies are just nasty. I was lucky in that my new employer had thousands of lawyers on staff and threw a couple their way, making my problem disappear. You need to understand your position. Things are not always fair. You will not win every battle. However, it is a good idea to avoid these kinds of things from the beginning if you can. Not every company is run like this. Vote with your feet. Work for companies that have good policies. And when you find one and you feel you can trust management, do what you can to stay there and make it successful. Good companies exist.