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Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up

44 points by aburan28 10y ago

VLM 10y ago
Coalition parties can't do revolutionary change due to divide and conqueror strategies. Which is how the D party got taken over and co-opted into the party solely representing the interests of the rich globalist corporate establishment to begin with. This is not the democratic party of the 60s radical hippies, this is an extremist form of Reaganomics hiding behind a Hillary mask. So this aspect of his message is the tilting at windmills, basically complaining about the inevitable and unavoidable result after things are already in motion. The world series game pitch has been made and the ball is in the air and all the complaining you do about strategic pitcher hiring strategies in the off season or ticket sales in an abstract sense do not matter when the bases loaded home run hit is already swinging. This would have been a very timely strategy article in, oh, I donno, 1980. Its more like an epitaph for the D party, in the current year. Another major strategic error is you can't divert political momentum by saying "we're gonna be just like the winner except way more boring, lower energy, less controversial, and far less interesting". As a thought experiment, say for the sake of argument you hate heavy metal music and want people to stop following it because you're that kind of person. If you propose broadcasting even more formulaic top 40 girlpop on a different station, that's really going to excite the base of formulaic top 40 girlpop listeners. But the cool kids listening to the heavy metal station are just going to laugh, have a good time, the good time leads to more heavy metal listeners...
amluto 10y ago
> The global economy is not working for the majority of people in our country and the world. This is a cute bit of rhetorical fakery here. Bernie is argues that, globally, the economy isn't working out for most people (in a real income sense and an income inequality sense). It's a global problem so it seems to follow that the "global economy" isn't working. Then he blames trade agreements, the basis of the "global economy". Nice one! Why exactly does he think that reducing free trade will help the lower income percentiles? At best it will shift some money in lower-paying jobs around. How about doing something really politically risky and trying to attack income/wealth inequality directly? There's plenty of overall income (GDP) in the US under current trade rules -- it's just not distributed in anywhere near a way to maximize overall happiness or even overall ability to pay for basic necessities. Also, somehow, even after his last paragraph, he still refuses to say "vote for Hilary". My respect for him is rapidly dwindling.
- VLM 10y ago
  Clearly, there's no historical correlation between trade agreements being signed and related jobs disappearing. Mere coincidence, over and over and over and over. Even if it doesn't work, we just need to do more of it. Because... why?
  - pas 10y ago
    Care to link some sources for that? Also, automation is coming, eventually you don't have to move product, only a few high-performance efficient machine (the factory).
    - undersuit 10y ago
      You'll still move your product if it's cheaper to produce it in once place and ship it. Why build 7 small factories that are semi automated when you can build one large semi automated factory and ship everything for rock bottom prices thanks to the externality-blind price of oil.
      - pas 10y ago
        Levies, tariffs, taxes. Trade agreements are usually about those.
- burkaman 10y ago
  This is a useful graph: https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/06/wonk-globalincome0625-1.jpg https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/06/... I think the argument is basically that free trade redistributes working class incomes to the poorer countries that they trade with. I am not endorsing this idea, I know nothing about economics, but I don't think I've seen another explanation for this particular inequality.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/the-tipping-point-most-americans-no-longer-are-middle-class http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/... > A just-released analysis of government data shows that as of 2015, middle-income households have become the minority. The trend is so firmly established that it may well continue; Americans have experienced "a demographic shift that could signal a tipping point," Pew researchers concluded Wednesday.
forkandwait 10y ago
I think there is a vacuum in US politics waiting for another real populist movement. And it should be working on the base of local and state offices, as well as building party machinery that transcends any single election. And it should NOT be focused around Hail Mary presidential candidates like Bernie until there is a network of democratic socialists in power somewhere besides Vermont.
- undersuit 10y ago
  That's part of Bernie's thing, even if he can't win the nomination he can put a lot of populist candidates into government positions. It's one reason why he hasn't stopped campaigning, he can use his campaign's money to finance candidates in lower races.
  - intopieces 10y ago
    Where's the best place to find a list of the campaigns Sanders has moved his money into? It would be interesting to see how those candidates line up with his message. Since he raised money outside the DNC (much like Obama did) I'm not sure exactly how those contributions are being measured.
hughdbrown 10y ago
The only occurrence of "clin" in the article is in "decline." It's not like he is going out of his way to specify who this person might be: "We need a president who will vigorously support international cooperation that brings the people of the world closer together, reduces hypernationalism and decreases the possibility of war. We also need a president who respects the democratic rights of the people, and who will fight for an economy that protects the interests of working people, not just Wall Street, the drug companies and other powerful special interests." Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy? Both. There's a chance Clinton will still be indicted.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy? He's still officially in the race, and there's extreme circumstances one can imagine where he might be able to actually win the nomination, but mostly he is focusing on shaping the party through the platform, for mobilizing people to run for office, etc.

44 points by aburan28 10y ago

VLM 10y ago

Coalition parties can't do revolutionary change due to divide and conqueror strategies. Which is how the D party got taken over and co-opted into the party solely representing the interests of the rich globalist corporate establishment to begin with. This is not the democratic party of the 60s radical hippies, this is an extremist form of Reaganomics hiding behind a Hillary mask. So this aspect of his message is the tilting at windmills, basically complaining about the inevitable and unavoidable result after things are already in motion. The world series game pitch has been made and the ball is in the air and all the complaining you do about strategic pitcher hiring strategies in the off season or ticket sales in an abstract sense do not matter when the bases loaded home run hit is already swinging. This would have been a very timely strategy article in, oh, I donno, 1980. Its more like an epitaph for the D party, in the current year. Another major strategic error is you can't divert political momentum by saying "we're gonna be just like the winner except way more boring, lower energy, less controversial, and far less interesting". As a thought experiment, say for the sake of argument you hate heavy metal music and want people to stop following it because you're that kind of person. If you propose broadcasting even more formulaic top 40 girlpop on a different station, that's really going to excite the base of formulaic top 40 girlpop listeners. But the cool kids listening to the heavy metal station are just going to laugh, have a good time, the good time leads to more heavy metal listeners...

amluto 10y ago

> The global economy is not working for the majority of people in our country and the world. This is a cute bit of rhetorical fakery here. Bernie is argues that, globally, the economy isn't working out for most people (in a real income sense and an income inequality sense). It's a global problem so it seems to follow that the "global economy" isn't working. Then he blames trade agreements, the basis of the "global economy". Nice one! Why exactly does he think that reducing free trade will help the lower income percentiles? At best it will shift some money in lower-paying jobs around. How about doing something really politically risky and trying to attack income/wealth inequality directly? There's plenty of overall income (GDP) in the US under current trade rules -- it's just not distributed in anywhere near a way to maximize overall happiness or even overall ability to pay for basic necessities. Also, somehow, even after his last paragraph, he still refuses to say "vote for Hilary". My respect for him is rapidly dwindling.

VLM 10y ago
Clearly, there's no historical correlation between trade agreements being signed and related jobs disappearing. Mere coincidence, over and over and over and over. Even if it doesn't work, we just need to do more of it. Because... why?
- pas 10y ago
  Care to link some sources for that? Also, automation is coming, eventually you don't have to move product, only a few high-performance efficient machine (the factory).
  - undersuit 10y ago
    You'll still move your product if it's cheaper to produce it in once place and ship it. Why build 7 small factories that are semi automated when you can build one large semi automated factory and ship everything for rock bottom prices thanks to the externality-blind price of oil.
    - pas 10y ago
      Levies, tariffs, taxes. Trade agreements are usually about those.
burkaman 10y ago
This is a useful graph: https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/06/wonk-globalincome0625-1.jpg https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/06/... I think the argument is basically that free trade redistributes working class incomes to the poorer countries that they trade with. I am not endorsing this idea, I know nothing about economics, but I don't think I've seen another explanation for this particular inequality.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/the-tipping-point-most-americans-no-longer-are-middle-class http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/... > A just-released analysis of government data shows that as of 2015, middle-income households have become the minority. The trend is so firmly established that it may well continue; Americans have experienced "a demographic shift that could signal a tipping point," Pew researchers concluded Wednesday.

forkandwait 10y ago

I think there is a vacuum in US politics waiting for another real populist movement. And it should be working on the base of local and state offices, as well as building party machinery that transcends any single election. And it should NOT be focused around Hail Mary presidential candidates like Bernie until there is a network of democratic socialists in power somewhere besides Vermont.

undersuit 10y ago
That's part of Bernie's thing, even if he can't win the nomination he can put a lot of populist candidates into government positions. It's one reason why he hasn't stopped campaigning, he can use his campaign's money to finance candidates in lower races.
- intopieces 10y ago
  Where's the best place to find a list of the campaigns Sanders has moved his money into? It would be interesting to see how those candidates line up with his message. Since he raised money outside the DNC (much like Obama did) I'm not sure exactly how those contributions are being measured.

hughdbrown 10y ago

The only occurrence of "clin" in the article is in "decline." It's not like he is going out of his way to specify who this person might be: "We need a president who will vigorously support international cooperation that brings the people of the world closer together, reduces hypernationalism and decreases the possibility of war. We also need a president who respects the democratic rights of the people, and who will fight for an economy that protects the interests of working people, not just Wall Street, the drug companies and other powerful special interests." Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy?

toomuchtodo 10y ago
> Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy? Both. There's a chance Clinton will still be indicted.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Is he still in the race or is he just trying to steer the Democratic party policy? He's still officially in the race, and there's extreme circumstances one can imagine where he might be able to actually win the nomination, but mostly he is focusing on shaping the party through the platform, for mobilizing people to run for office, etc.