4 ms·

I signed mine with my new hire paperwork. I had just flown across the country to take the job. Am I supposed to say no when my family had just spent a ton of mo

I signed mine with my new hire paperwork. I had just flown across the country to take the job. Am I supposed to say no when my family had just spent a ton of money to move? Shady when companies do this, IMO

tdicola 10y ago
Bring it up in the interview process, particularly when talking to HR, etc. You don't have to make a stand right there but at least find out what's typically in an employment contract (a very reasonable question to ask even in an early interview). Then later on when they're trying to close the deal make it a negotiable thing just like salary, etc.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Lesson learned on my part, for sure.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  I asked about something similar at the offer stage: invention disclosure and assignment. I asked several times and the recruiting team told me that "everything I needed was on the website [where the job offer and the related terms were]." I even asked "No, I mean the forms you'd ask me to sign upon accepting the offer when I'm hired." Still nothing. Sure enough, as soon as I accept the offer I'm presented with exactly what I was looking for on that very same website. Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations. Indeed. Refusing to disclose terms until you've started the job is abundant evidence of them being employee-hostile and manipulative.
  - crusso 10y ago
    Why didn't you tell them that you wouldn't take the job if they couldn't present you with the paperwork that they would be requiring you to sign? And if they presented extra paperwork later, why wouldn't you hold them to that?
    - wyldfire 10y ago
      Perhaps I should have. I was assuaged by the fact that they provided specific "exceptions from copyright" (e.g. open source projects that I have and will continue to contribute to).
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      I can't speak for this case, but the answer is often "you found out after you travelled across the country and turned down other job offers, and may be waiting for repayment of moving expenses". Yes, a person could try to get this sort of thing in writing and sue for damages incurred, but they'd still be unemployed and loaded with expenses in the meantime. There's a lot of freedom to push this kind of thing because there's too much legal overhead to fight it.
beagle3 10y ago
Isn't it customary to sign contracts etc before moving? I have never even quit a job before having all the paperwork finalized for the new place.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate... Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign. The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete. As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.
  - VLM 10y ago
    At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.

tdicola 10y ago

Bring it up in the interview process, particularly when talking to HR, etc. You don't have to make a stand right there but at least find out what's typically in an employment contract (a very reasonable question to ask even in an early interview). Then later on when they're trying to close the deal make it a negotiable thing just like salary, etc.

CaptSpify 10y ago
Lesson learned on my part, for sure.
wyldfire 10y ago
I asked about something similar at the offer stage: invention disclosure and assignment. I asked several times and the recruiting team told me that "everything I needed was on the website [where the job offer and the related terms were]." I even asked "No, I mean the forms you'd ask me to sign upon accepting the offer when I'm hired." Still nothing. Sure enough, as soon as I accept the offer I'm presented with exactly what I was looking for on that very same website. Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.
- morgante 10y ago
  > Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations. Indeed. Refusing to disclose terms until you've started the job is abundant evidence of them being employee-hostile and manipulative.
- crusso 10y ago
  Why didn't you tell them that you wouldn't take the job if they couldn't present you with the paperwork that they would be requiring you to sign? And if they presented extra paperwork later, why wouldn't you hold them to that?
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    Perhaps I should have. I was assuaged by the fact that they provided specific "exceptions from copyright" (e.g. open source projects that I have and will continue to contribute to).
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    I can't speak for this case, but the answer is often "you found out after you travelled across the country and turned down other job offers, and may be waiting for repayment of moving expenses". Yes, a person could try to get this sort of thing in writing and sue for damages incurred, but they'd still be unemployed and loaded with expenses in the meantime. There's a lot of freedom to push this kind of thing because there's too much legal overhead to fight it.

beagle3 10y ago

Isn't it customary to sign contracts etc before moving? I have never even quit a job before having all the paperwork finalized for the new place.

mikekchar 10y ago
This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate... Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign. The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete. As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.
- VLM 10y ago
  At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.