6 ms·

Yeah, so it would in a lot of ways be ideal if people could reasonably read, understand, and negotiate the contracts they sign, and then be reasonably bound by

Yeah, so it would in a lot of ways be ideal if people could reasonably read, understand, and negotiate the contracts they sign, and then be reasonably bound by those contracts. So each person could say something like, "Sure, I'll sign a non-compete. For an extra $15,000 per year." And then the company could decide if that's worth it to them. In practice, people just sign what's in front of them, and indeed even if they want to read and understand everything, they can't without a fair amount of training -- and the existence of lots of other people who will just sign what's in front them means that it's hard to negotiate based on what you're signing even if you do read and understand it. (Digression: I bought a house. The amount of paperwork that I signed without reading was probably around 100 pages. This is a crazy way to live.) This feels like a problem that is getting amenable to a technological solution. It's pretty easy to imagine a digital assistant that could understand common contract phrasing and even do things like say to a person, "This offer includes a non-compete clause. Based on your demographics and the position, signing a non-compete clause will cost you approximately $X per year. Would you like to negotiate for +$X per year? Y/N" The problem, it seems to me, would be to get buy-in to the idea that such digital assistants should exist and that companies would have to accommodate such assistants.

CaptSpify 10y ago
I signed mine with my new hire paperwork. I had just flown across the country to take the job. Am I supposed to say no when my family had just spent a ton of money to move? Shady when companies do this, IMO
- tdicola 10y ago
  Bring it up in the interview process, particularly when talking to HR, etc. You don't have to make a stand right there but at least find out what's typically in an employment contract (a very reasonable question to ask even in an early interview). Then later on when they're trying to close the deal make it a negotiable thing just like salary, etc.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    Lesson learned on my part, for sure.
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    I asked about something similar at the offer stage: invention disclosure and assignment. I asked several times and the recruiting team told me that "everything I needed was on the website [where the job offer and the related terms were]." I even asked "No, I mean the forms you'd ask me to sign upon accepting the offer when I'm hired." Still nothing. Sure enough, as soon as I accept the offer I'm presented with exactly what I was looking for on that very same website. Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.
    - morgante 10y ago
      > Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations. Indeed. Refusing to disclose terms until you've started the job is abundant evidence of them being employee-hostile and manipulative.
    - crusso 10y ago
      Why didn't you tell them that you wouldn't take the job if they couldn't present you with the paperwork that they would be requiring you to sign? And if they presented extra paperwork later, why wouldn't you hold them to that?
      - wyldfire 10y ago
        Perhaps I should have. I was assuaged by the fact that they provided specific "exceptions from copyright" (e.g. open source projects that I have and will continue to contribute to).
      - Bartweiss 10y ago
        I can't speak for this case, but the answer is often "you found out after you travelled across the country and turned down other job offers, and may be waiting for repayment of moving expenses". Yes, a person could try to get this sort of thing in writing and sue for damages incurred, but they'd still be unemployed and loaded with expenses in the meantime. There's a lot of freedom to push this kind of thing because there's too much legal overhead to fight it.
- beagle3 10y ago
  Isn't it customary to sign contracts etc before moving? I have never even quit a job before having all the paperwork finalized for the new place.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate... Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign. The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete. As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.
    - VLM 10y ago
      At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.
morgante 10y ago
> This feels like a problem that is getting amenable to a technological solution. While it's certainly possible to apply some technology to this solution, it actually amazes me that people don't spend more time reading and negotiating these. If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. The idea that you wouldn't at least read and understand the whole thing yourself (and seek professional counsel if necessary) is ludicrous and a terrible way to live. One sneaky thing which companies do is only giving you paperwork (including a non-compete) on your first day of work. During negotiation, I always insist on seeing a copy of what I'll be asked to sign before agreeing to take the job. Anyone who refuses this is trying to pull something over on you.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  >If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am an engineer. I don't have an employment contract, I have a piece of paper that has my salary and says I'm an at will employee. Ive never had anything else, literally every job - salary and "you are at will". Benefits have changed all the time with no notice. What kind of contacts are you guys getting?
  - morgante 10y ago
    I meant "employment contract" in the sense of the dozens of pages of legal documentation you'll typically sign, including stock agreements, non-competes, etc.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Never signed anything other than the aforementioned piece of paper (2 sentences) and a NDA. Unless you work for a start up with 5 employees and no HR the HR Dept has its set benefits and forms you must sign, those are not negotiable, only salary is. Typically you are in a standard benefits group depending on the date you were hired and if you are full time or part time. Example: benefits group 3, everyone in that group has the same benefits, you surely aren't going to negotiate special treatment.
mooreds 10y ago
> I bought a house. The amount of paperwork that I signed without reading was probably around 100 pages. I bought a house and read every single one of those pages. No change possible--walking was only alternative. Was in too deep and didn't want to lose the house, the earnest money and my time. I understand the note and deed, but didn't get any other benefit.
- abecedarius 10y ago
  In EULA-like situations where you "can't" negotiate the contract, it's not clear to me whether reading it is a good move, game-theoretically.
  - Dr_tldr 10y ago
    Yeah, exactly this. I read my first contract ever really closely, saw it had a bunch of potentially onerous terms, then signed it anyway because I had no negotiating leverage and it effectively quadrupled my income. What I've heard from a lot of WA devs is "yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California." It's nice that option exists, but it's kind of silly that "defensive relocation" is something people even have to consider.
    - auntienomen 10y ago
      "yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California." I don't think this works. You'll still get sued in Washington.
      - WWLink 10y ago
        How does that work if you sign a non-compete for a job in california with a company registered in delaware?
      - Dr_tldr 10y ago
        Yeah, no, not at all. Or actually, it's not that simple. Many non-competes are specific to a region in the hopes of making them less likely to be ruled overly broad. Furthermore, if you work and live in California, the WA court can be found not to have standing, and the company can't bring suit in California because pretty much all non-completes are considered void there.

CaptSpify 10y ago

I signed mine with my new hire paperwork. I had just flown across the country to take the job. Am I supposed to say no when my family had just spent a ton of money to move? Shady when companies do this, IMO

tdicola 10y ago
Bring it up in the interview process, particularly when talking to HR, etc. You don't have to make a stand right there but at least find out what's typically in an employment contract (a very reasonable question to ask even in an early interview). Then later on when they're trying to close the deal make it a negotiable thing just like salary, etc.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Lesson learned on my part, for sure.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  I asked about something similar at the offer stage: invention disclosure and assignment. I asked several times and the recruiting team told me that "everything I needed was on the website [where the job offer and the related terms were]." I even asked "No, I mean the forms you'd ask me to sign upon accepting the offer when I'm hired." Still nothing. Sure enough, as soon as I accept the offer I'm presented with exactly what I was looking for on that very same website. Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations. Indeed. Refusing to disclose terms until you've started the job is abundant evidence of them being employee-hostile and manipulative.
  - crusso 10y ago
    Why didn't you tell them that you wouldn't take the job if they couldn't present you with the paperwork that they would be requiring you to sign? And if they presented extra paperwork later, why wouldn't you hold them to that?
    - wyldfire 10y ago
      Perhaps I should have. I was assuaged by the fact that they provided specific "exceptions from copyright" (e.g. open source projects that I have and will continue to contribute to).
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      I can't speak for this case, but the answer is often "you found out after you travelled across the country and turned down other job offers, and may be waiting for repayment of moving expenses". Yes, a person could try to get this sort of thing in writing and sue for damages incurred, but they'd still be unemployed and loaded with expenses in the meantime. There's a lot of freedom to push this kind of thing because there's too much legal overhead to fight it.
beagle3 10y ago
Isn't it customary to sign contracts etc before moving? I have never even quit a job before having all the paperwork finalized for the new place.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate... Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign. The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete. As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.
  - VLM 10y ago
    At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination). It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.

morgante 10y ago

> This feels like a problem that is getting amenable to a technological solution. While it's certainly possible to apply some technology to this solution, it actually amazes me that people don't spend more time reading and negotiating these. If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. The idea that you wouldn't at least read and understand the whole thing yourself (and seek professional counsel if necessary) is ludicrous and a terrible way to live. One sneaky thing which companies do is only giving you paperwork (including a non-compete) on your first day of work. During negotiation, I always insist on seeing a copy of what I'll be asked to sign before agreeing to take the job. Anyone who refuses this is trying to pull something over on you.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
>If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am an engineer. I don't have an employment contract, I have a piece of paper that has my salary and says I'm an at will employee. Ive never had anything else, literally every job - salary and "you are at will". Benefits have changed all the time with no notice. What kind of contacts are you guys getting?
- morgante 10y ago
  I meant "employment contract" in the sense of the dozens of pages of legal documentation you'll typically sign, including stock agreements, non-competes, etc.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Never signed anything other than the aforementioned piece of paper (2 sentences) and a NDA. Unless you work for a start up with 5 employees and no HR the HR Dept has its set benefits and forms you must sign, those are not negotiable, only salary is. Typically you are in a standard benefits group depending on the date you were hired and if you are full time or part time. Example: benefits group 3, everyone in that group has the same benefits, you surely aren't going to negotiate special treatment.

mooreds 10y ago

> I bought a house. The amount of paperwork that I signed without reading was probably around 100 pages. I bought a house and read every single one of those pages. No change possible--walking was only alternative. Was in too deep and didn't want to lose the house, the earnest money and my time. I understand the note and deed, but didn't get any other benefit.

abecedarius 10y ago
In EULA-like situations where you "can't" negotiate the contract, it's not clear to me whether reading it is a good move, game-theoretically.
- Dr_tldr 10y ago
  Yeah, exactly this. I read my first contract ever really closely, saw it had a bunch of potentially onerous terms, then signed it anyway because I had no negotiating leverage and it effectively quadrupled my income. What I've heard from a lot of WA devs is "yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California." It's nice that option exists, but it's kind of silly that "defensive relocation" is something people even have to consider.
  - auntienomen 10y ago
    "yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California." I don't think this works. You'll still get sued in Washington.
    - WWLink 10y ago
      How does that work if you sign a non-compete for a job in california with a company registered in delaware?
    - Dr_tldr 10y ago
      Yeah, no, not at all. Or actually, it's not that simple. Many non-competes are specific to a region in the hopes of making them less likely to be ruled overly broad. Furthermore, if you work and live in California, the WA court can be found not to have standing, and the company can't bring suit in California because pretty much all non-completes are considered void there.