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Zend Framework 3 Released
- raitom 10y agoToo late. Way better alternatives exist nowadays.
- jonaswouters 10y agoThe components are now no longer or less intertwined with others and are therefor more easily used by other projects. Basically like the symfony components are used everywhere. A little competition or alternatives is always good.
- agopaul 10y agoAre you referring to other PHP frameworks?
- cm3 10y agoUr/Web is my favorite for many reasons. https://air.mozilla.org/ur-web-a-simple-model-for-programming-the-web/ https://air.mozilla.org/ur-web-a-simple-model-for-programmin...
- aearm 10y agowhy I have to use zend? I have found it so complicated and there is no good support recourse for it
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jmspring 10y agoInteresting. It doesn't amaze me the continued popularity of PHP. The language, framework, and ecosystem just work. Plenty of people well versed in it. It's not sexy, and I've done more than a few years of consultancy there. New energy in an ecosystem is never a bad thing.
- pekk 10y agoWhat doesn't "just work" to the same standard? What, among the things anyone uses, are you saying that PHP works better than?
- siegecraft 10y agoPHP doesn't have the library fragmentation of nodejs or the deployment friction of compiled languages like C# and Java. So when someone says "its just works" they mean they can clone a repo onto a server and see results immediately, without the intermediate steps that other languages and frameworks impose on you.
- onion2k 10y agoWhen I started out making web software 20 years ago the choices for server-side code were essentially C, Perl, or ASP with VBScript. Then PHP came along and made things a great deal easier because managing a server was hard, and PHP just worked pretty much everywhere. In that sense PHP was amazing. We aren't working in that environment any more. What software runs on a server is no longer up to the hosting company. A developer/devop can configure a server far more easily, with no input from a sysadmin. The process can be completely automated. That change has opened up development options considerably. That doesn't mean writing code in PHP is a bad choice, but it does mean there is a choice. PHP's primary advantage has been eroded to the point where it should no longer impact the decision making process when you're figuring out what to use. Everything else has caught up.
- gondo 10y agoi used to use ZF1. it was a good framework back in its days. than ZF2 come along with its overcomplicated boilerplate configuration and its backwards incompatibility. it was unusable with almost non existing community, so I took a time to look elsewhere and switched. I am happy now with my current framework and can't care less for ZF.
- vesak 10y agoAs someone who doesn't generally like PHP very much, I have to say that ZF1 was quite nice because of its simplicity. Too bad they abandoned it. Now ZF2-3 have nothing to distinguish themselves from the other frameworks.
- baby 10y agoAre there anyone still using Zend? I know most companies in France use Symphony.
- pestaa 10y agoSymfony is huge all over Europe (at least), but Zend is still used in projects started before Symfony matured, e.g. Magento.
- agopaul 10y agoI've been using ZF1 and then ZF2 for the last 4 years. The learning curve is a bit steep, but when you understand how the framework works, then it's a breeze to work with. I just had to learn by trying and looking at the sources, since the documentation is quite poor. I never used Symfony, but I'm curious to hear from someone who tried both (ZF2, Symfony 2), what they like best of Symfony. Might give it a try in the next projects
- rando444 10y agoI've never used Zend, but was tasked with creating a new web app for our customers. I did some research, and after reading this article comparing the PHP frameworks [0], I ended up choosing Laravel, which I think was a great choice. The documentation seems quite good, and there seems to be a strong community. I found this site which has video tutorials that teach the framework https://laracasts.com/ https://laracasts.com/ After sitting through a few lessons, I was off, and finished a production ready web application in about a week, and was really proud of how it turned out, especially since I do systems administration for a living and not development. [0] http://zenofcoding.com/2015/11/16/the-great-php-mvc-framework-showdown-of-2016-cakephp-3-vs-symfony-2-vs-laravel-5-vs-zend-2/ http://zenofcoding.com/2015/11/16/the-great-php-mvc-framewor...
- Joeri 10y agoWe have a million line codebase that uses a bunch of ZF1 functionality (validation, database, web services, ...) plugged into a bespoke core. Overall I can't say we had any complaints. What we used from it worked well, and adapting it to our needs was relatively easy. We never did use any of the MVC or routing features though. And we never upgraded to ZF2, mostly because there wasn't any real reason to.
- donatj 10y agoHuh, interesting. I thought ZF2 was still getting ironed out. I've been a little out of touch with the community.
- craigmcnamara 10y agoI'm tired of saying I hate PHP.
- girvo 10y agoThen don't. It's not helpful nor is it particularly noteworthy to state that, especially here.
- pekk 10y agoIs it helpful or noteworthy to write for the thousandth time that PHP "works"?
- bdcravens 10y agoNot necessarily, but probably more valuable than someone expressing hate. For someone making a technical decision, the prior is a datapoint, whereas personal hate comes off as just that.
- craigmcnamara 10y agoPlenty of things do, until they don't. The, "well, we're stuck with it" philosophy is strong in the PHP community and I hate it.
- girvo 10y agoThe adoption of PSR-7 and the other PSR standards has made framework interoperation infinitely easier, and it's great to see Zend following the community in this regard. Combining their decoupled packages with those from the PHP League[0], for example, along with best-of-breed third-party libraries such as Monolog will mean that developers get to take advantage of amazing tools without worrying about writing yet another wrapper layer (I'm looking at you, Symfony bundles and Silex service-providers...)
- wyqydsyq 10y agoWait, people still use PHP for new software?! And here I was thinking the industry had modernized...
- yo-code-sucks 10y agoActually PHP is an amazing language that is almost impossible to write bad code in...............NOT!
- melicerte 10y agoTell me what should "the industry" be using to be modernized? And, more importantly, why?
- wyqydsyq 10y agoA language with some consistency would be a start. Go, TypeScript, Elixir are all superior to PHP in that aspect. PHP lacks consistency in naming conventions, function signatures (is that a string or bitmask I'm supposed to pass?) and tons of other things. I could write a novel about it, but there's already multiple websites/articles dedicated to PHP's inherent design flaws: http://phpsadness.com/ http://phpsadness.com/ https://whydoesitsuck.com/why-does-php-suck/ https://whydoesitsuck.com/why-does-php-suck/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ Plus it's limited in capabilities compared to stuff like Node.js (or other libuv bindings), considering we get stuff like Hot Module Reloading, isomorphic/universal applications, simple websockets integration, all of which PHP is either incapable of providing or provides inferior solutions due to limitations of the PHP language or Zend Engine.
- pcnc 10y ago> PHP lacks consistency in naming conventions, function signatures (is that a string or bitmask I'm supposed to pass?) and tons of other things. Welcome to Javascript?
- 10y ago
- rbanffy 10y agoGenuinely curious about it: what are the reasons to start a new project on PHP?
- Kiro 10y agoFor me it's mainly because of Laravel. Everything just works as I would expect, to a level I can often figure out how to use internals without consulting the documentation. With that said I mostly have experience with PHP so perhaps there are superior alternatives in other languages.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Scarbutt 10y agoOne would be that PHP is all you know, another might be "wordpress".
- bdcravens 10y agoHiring pool (especially if you're aiming for low cost remote contractors)
- jafingi 10y agoProfessionally, I work full time as .NET architect, but for my own projects, I always use PHP. 1) It just works. 2) Plenty of great frameworks. I especially love Laravel, which has _everything_ from a great IoC to ORM, as well as a huge community around it. 3) It's so easy and quick to get started. 4) HHVM (and also PHP 7) just makes PHP fly.
- carrja99 10y agoAh I remember it like it was yesterday. After years of doing work in the Java and Scala ecosphere I took a gig at a mortgage company doing PHP. Composer, Larval, Symphony2, Silex and a dozen other things made it seem to me like PHP might not be too bad. I might even have some fun! Then the day I started I learned the sad truth. The "Technical Architect" laid down the law: all applications had to be written in Zend Framework 2 and nothing else. I gave it a chance, read all the docs and wrote an app in it. Suffice to say there was a scarce community and lots of defects. I also found how it worked overly complex. Imagine taking spring and asking "how can I make this harder and in PHP?" That's how I found the dependency injection framework to be. Suffice to say I only lasted 3 months before moving on. ;-)
- maaaats 10y agoThis sounds like one of those Whisper fake stories or a r/thathappened post, especially with the "suffice to say" and the smiley at the end. I used ZF2 during the beta, and the activity on SO, their IRC and their forums were high even then, so I can't say I recognize what you say about the scarce community.
- grncdr 10y agoI also used ZF2 for a project (shortly after release) and I agree with your assessment of the community: there was clearly a lot of interest and contributions. That being said, I also agree with carrja99's comments regarding the complexity and defects. Many things felt unfinished, and documentation was pretty poor if you wanted to step outside the boundaries of what was covered in their example applications (which was unfortunately necessary for my project). I ended up reading a great deal of framework code for that project. I'm not doing PHP at the moment, but I don't think I'd even consider ZF3 at this point given how many other strong frameworks are available.
- carrja99 10y agoAh that's what it was! I had to fix issues with components like the select group on a regular basis. The if channel was actually quite active I think I was recalling the difficulty of using build tools with... Perforce.
- BilalBudhani 10y agoThis just reminded me that, I'm a Zend Certified PHP Developer . Those days :))
- otar 10y agoAnother ZCE here :)
- rolfvandekrol 10y agoAh, nice. So you have an actual certificate which states that you are very good at remembering useless details from a programming language manual? I always flat-out refused to become a Zend Certified Engineer. I'm perfectly willing to gain a certificate for my actual programming capabilities, but not for how well I can remember details in a manual.
- thinkt4nk 10y agogrumble grumble standardized tests
- mgkimsal 10y agoDid you ever take the test? There wasn't all that much about 'remembering useless details from a manual' in it. I've taken the cert twice (5.x and 5.3 IIRC) and in neither case was there much in the way of 'manual trivia'. Far more were scanning a piece of code and being able to determine what the outcome was (error? if so, which one? if not, what's the output?) than haystack/needle issues.
- cm3 10y agoFunny you say that. In some other programming community, when one of the consultancy shops was questioning the community what they think of certifications, they were surprised to read that I was one of a few who said certifications are useless and especially so in programming. What it also reminds me of is one job interview where instead of the scheduled pair programming session I had to program my 3rd (IIRC) working program for them to show again that I can code something from scratch. In that case I didn't recall all the pieces of the framework/api from memory, and having to consult a reference book made me fail the test. If a certificate of Foo API Expert would have saved me that failure, then maybe it's worth something, but other than that a certificate says nothing about a developer.
- throw2016 10y agoI have worked extensively with PHP, Python, Ruby and Node. I love PHP for deployment of end user apps. It just works. It literally takes minutes and you can be in your app rather than struggling with the language ecosystem. It takes a lot of work and thinking to get to this state that is easy to overlook but it reflects a respect for users from the developers. And it shows. All the top apps in terms of deployment are PHP. I will ignore the many criticisms against it, they may be valid or they may not. The bottom line is utopianism is a deadend, there are always upsides and tradeoffs. PHP is improving and will continue to improve and is relatively simple to learn and use. Kudos. Python is really a fantastic asset to the community. It's relatively simple to use and deploy thanks to its wide support on most Linux distibutions. I hate complexity and there are tons of interesting things in Python beyond Django. The server story could be improved but its not a deal breaker. I think Ruby and to some extent Node but Ruby more so shows a thorough disrespect near hostility for the user. Deploying a Ruby app is always time for trepidation and you can be sure it is going to take time unless you are extremely well versed and upto date on the ecosystem ie a developer with a Ruby focus and perhaps that's why Ruby is best used in SAAS scenarios. I have deep doubts on the user focus of developers who expect users to deploy their Ruby apps. There are tons of issues that crop up, from getting the base environment up and you do need a dev environment which has its own pitfalls and gotchas as gems may need to be built. Then there is the decision of where the gems should be, using things like RVM, Rbenv or the system ruby, the users who should run it and all the shenanigans that comes with it. Then deploying the apps themselves in terms of using things like Bundler which needs its own knowledge base and servers which could mean compiling Passenger with or without Nginx or using Unicorn. That is a lot of know how and it's a complete mess. Updating apps can be equally troubling. There is no knowing which Ruby gem dependency could fail, which library may be needed, and that particular library may not be in your running distribution so you may need to compile it and that could start a long time consuming chain. This is millions of user and dev hours wasted for nothing, literally, that could be resolved by the developers and is much worse than anything you can throw at PHP which looks almost angelic in comparision. The deep knowlege required makes Ruby and Node extremely unpleasant. It should not take this amount of know how to simply deploy and use an app. HN is dev focussed and it makes economic sense for devs to have expertise in the most rewarding languages, but this should not detract from the weakness and strengths of languages and I think it does.
- carrja99 10y agoThis reminds me... Does anyone actually run zend server? At a previous gig they standardized on zend framework 2 and were adopting zend server. I told them I thought that was a mistake given Nginx and PHP-fpm but I didn't stick around long enough to see how it panned out.
- user23490 10y agoAs someone who is currently stuck managing a Zend 1.9 project, if I ever see another Zend project it'll be too soon.
- stemc43 10y agoI absolutely hated ZF1. ZF2 was completely different story though.