3 ms·

You're saying modern air to air combat is relatively simple and doesn't require that much pilot skill? If that's the case, why do all the accounts of the 1991 a

You're saying modern air to air combat is relatively simple and doesn't require that much pilot skill? If that's the case, why do all the accounts of the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars claim pilot skill was perhaps the single largest advantage the Americans and British had over the Iraqis? (Not a rhetorical question; I don't know what the specifics of the task consist of, and I'm curious about the answer.)

crazypyro 10y ago
Not saying this has any relation in this specific case, but both of those governments have made up similar lies about pilot ability (British in WWII with radar hidden by "pilots who eat carrots to improve eyesight" is the classic example) in the past to hide technological advancements.
neurotech1 10y ago
In Gulf War 91, the Iraqi pilots were both skilled and combat experienced from the Iran-Iraq war. Although rigorously trained and highly skilled, very few USAF pilots flying operationally had actually previously experienced air-to-air combat. Apart from technically superior radar and weapons systems, the USAF Weapons School[0] teaches USAF fighter pilots how to engage within the envelope of those weapons. In the early part of the Vietnam war, the air-to-air missiles kept missing the target due to poor pilot training. The result of the Ault report[1] and subsequent TOPGUN[2] program worked to remedy the shortcoming in the training. The USAF FWS was created after seeing the results of the Navy TOPGUN training. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Weapons_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Weapons_School [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ault_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ault_Report [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Fighter_Tactics_Instructor_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Figh...
- kiba 10y ago
  The last time I watched a documentary about dogfights, two stories about the gulf war ends in the Iraqi pilots losing situational awareness, and consequently dying by crashing into the ground. It makes me wonder a little bit if their skills are vastly overestimated.
  - neurotech1 10y ago
    In the same Dogfights documentary, they also mentioned Iraqi MiG-25 pilots evading several AIM-7 radar guided missiles fired at the same jet. In other references, there were a few cases of MiG-25s evading USAF F-15 firing missiles at them, and making it back to base. Experienced USAF pilots have hit the ground during combat operations. That doesn't mean they were not skilled pilots, just that they made a deadly mistake.
vlehto 10y ago
I'm not gulf war specialist, but most recent analysis predicts pretty consistently that if you pit decent to great pilots in F35 vs F35 with similar missiles, you get mutual kill every time. Same goes for any single plane that has BVR radar and missiles and off boresight close range missiles. Most 4th gen planes have these capabilities. I didn't agree with this at first, but they claim that modern missiles are able to differentiate between heat signature of plane body and engine nozzle. Also modern missiles are capable of 50G turns. That G-loading tells nothing about turning circle, but it does tell surprisingly nicely how quickly you can deviate from straight line. Fighter plane loses every time from every angle at every speed. The only problem of air-to-air missile dominance is that they burn through all of their fuel relatively quickly. Once that happens, maneuverability goes down really quick. So the "no escape zone" is crucial and it varies from missile to missile. If you want to stay alive, you need to out-range or surprise the enemy. Either stealth, superior radar or longer range missiles. It looks like fighters have become very expensive and very mobile SAM sites. It beats me why countries without aircraft carriers would ever pick F35. You can get ~50 trucks with Pirate IRST and METEOR missiles with the same price. More area covered at any given time while survivability goes up like hell I don't know what.

crazypyro 10y ago

Not saying this has any relation in this specific case, but both of those governments have made up similar lies about pilot ability (British in WWII with radar hidden by "pilots who eat carrots to improve eyesight" is the classic example) in the past to hide technological advancements.

neurotech1 10y ago

In Gulf War 91, the Iraqi pilots were both skilled and combat experienced from the Iran-Iraq war. Although rigorously trained and highly skilled, very few USAF pilots flying operationally had actually previously experienced air-to-air combat. Apart from technically superior radar and weapons systems, the USAF Weapons School[0] teaches USAF fighter pilots how to engage within the envelope of those weapons. In the early part of the Vietnam war, the air-to-air missiles kept missing the target due to poor pilot training. The result of the Ault report[1] and subsequent TOPGUN[2] program worked to remedy the shortcoming in the training. The USAF FWS was created after seeing the results of the Navy TOPGUN training. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Weapons_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Weapons_School [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ault_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ault_Report [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Fighter_Tactics_Instructor_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Figh...

kiba 10y ago
The last time I watched a documentary about dogfights, two stories about the gulf war ends in the Iraqi pilots losing situational awareness, and consequently dying by crashing into the ground. It makes me wonder a little bit if their skills are vastly overestimated.
- neurotech1 10y ago
  In the same Dogfights documentary, they also mentioned Iraqi MiG-25 pilots evading several AIM-7 radar guided missiles fired at the same jet. In other references, there were a few cases of MiG-25s evading USAF F-15 firing missiles at them, and making it back to base. Experienced USAF pilots have hit the ground during combat operations. That doesn't mean they were not skilled pilots, just that they made a deadly mistake.

vlehto 10y ago

I'm not gulf war specialist, but most recent analysis predicts pretty consistently that if you pit decent to great pilots in F35 vs F35 with similar missiles, you get mutual kill every time. Same goes for any single plane that has BVR radar and missiles and off boresight close range missiles. Most 4th gen planes have these capabilities. I didn't agree with this at first, but they claim that modern missiles are able to differentiate between heat signature of plane body and engine nozzle. Also modern missiles are capable of 50G turns. That G-loading tells nothing about turning circle, but it does tell surprisingly nicely how quickly you can deviate from straight line. Fighter plane loses every time from every angle at every speed. The only problem of air-to-air missile dominance is that they burn through all of their fuel relatively quickly. Once that happens, maneuverability goes down really quick. So the "no escape zone" is crucial and it varies from missile to missile. If you want to stay alive, you need to out-range or surprise the enemy. Either stealth, superior radar or longer range missiles. It looks like fighters have become very expensive and very mobile SAM sites. It beats me why countries without aircraft carriers would ever pick F35. You can get ~50 trucks with Pirate IRST and METEOR missiles with the same price. More area covered at any given time while survivability goes up like hell I don't know what.