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I'm not sure the Iraqi resistance against the US was in that hopeless a position. They were outgunned conventionally, but that didn't matter in a guerilla war a

I'm not sure the Iraqi resistance against the US was in that hopeless a position. They were outgunned conventionally, but that didn't matter in a guerilla war against a foreign occupier.

talmand 10y ago
For a guerilla war to be successful, the foreign occupier has to lose the will to win. Such resistance is hopeless in general terms of warfare, to be won it has to be considered as much a political war as it is a conventional one.
- vkou 10y ago
  That may have been the case in Iraq, but that was not at all the case in WWII. The Germans by no means lost the will to win in Yugoslavia or Poland.
  - talmand 10y ago
    True, they did not lose the will to win as they were simply defeated by an organized force. I believe the Germans were involved in more than just fighting underground resistance in multiple countries. Such resistance alone did not defeat the Germans, but did assist with the final outcome.
    - vkou 10y ago
      Tito's partisans drove out their occupiers without outside assistance. Now, Germany was obviously occupied on multiple fronts. While I can't contest that if a nation of 330 million were to devote its full human and industrial capacity for the purpose of destroying all resistance in a nation of 33 million, it would succeed... I wouldn't call the richest country in the world failing to convert to a war economy to overcome an enemy ten times smaller then they are to be 'lack of will to win.'
      - talmand 10y ago
        Yes, drove them out but did not defeat them in context of the war. The richest nation in the world should not have to convert to a war economy to defeat an enemy ten times smaller. If it could not; then it didn't want to be there in the first place, it didn't want to do what was necessary to win, or their internal politics is screwed up. Possibly more than one of those.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Such resistance is hopeless in general terms of warfare, to be won it has to be considered as much a political war as it is a conventional one. War is always political.
  - talmand 10y ago
    I agree. I was meaning more that a conventional war is more violence then politics. There are various aspects to war, each type has its own balance of these aspects. I just feel that in a guerilla war the politics has as much a part as violence.
mason240 10y ago
It's clear now that there was no "Iraqi resistance against the US," or else the would have stopped "resisting" after the US left. It was clear then too, but it obvious now that the proto-ISIS "freedom fighter" narrative was completely divorced from reality.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  The group that became ISIS wasn't the only group fighting the US occupation. (And the fact that a group has goals beyond resisting the occupation doesn't mean its not resisting the occupation; just like the fact that it had goals beyond opposing Saddam's regime doesn't mean that the same group wasn't opposed to Saddam's regime -- which had contained it far more effectively than the US occupation did.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

I'm not sure the Iraqi resistance against the US was in that hopeless a position. They were outgunned conventionally, but that didn't matter in a guerilla war against a foreign occupier.

talmand 10y ago

For a guerilla war to be successful, the foreign occupier has to lose the will to win. Such resistance is hopeless in general terms of warfare, to be won it has to be considered as much a political war as it is a conventional one.

vkou 10y ago
That may have been the case in Iraq, but that was not at all the case in WWII. The Germans by no means lost the will to win in Yugoslavia or Poland.
- talmand 10y ago
  True, they did not lose the will to win as they were simply defeated by an organized force. I believe the Germans were involved in more than just fighting underground resistance in multiple countries. Such resistance alone did not defeat the Germans, but did assist with the final outcome.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Tito's partisans drove out their occupiers without outside assistance. Now, Germany was obviously occupied on multiple fronts. While I can't contest that if a nation of 330 million were to devote its full human and industrial capacity for the purpose of destroying all resistance in a nation of 33 million, it would succeed... I wouldn't call the richest country in the world failing to convert to a war economy to overcome an enemy ten times smaller then they are to be 'lack of will to win.'
    - talmand 10y ago
      Yes, drove them out but did not defeat them in context of the war. The richest nation in the world should not have to convert to a war economy to defeat an enemy ten times smaller. If it could not; then it didn't want to be there in the first place, it didn't want to do what was necessary to win, or their internal politics is screwed up. Possibly more than one of those.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Such resistance is hopeless in general terms of warfare, to be won it has to be considered as much a political war as it is a conventional one. War is always political.
- talmand 10y ago
  I agree. I was meaning more that a conventional war is more violence then politics. There are various aspects to war, each type has its own balance of these aspects. I just feel that in a guerilla war the politics has as much a part as violence.

mason240 10y ago

It's clear now that there was no "Iraqi resistance against the US," or else the would have stopped "resisting" after the US left. It was clear then too, but it obvious now that the proto-ISIS "freedom fighter" narrative was completely divorced from reality.

dragonwriter 10y ago
The group that became ISIS wasn't the only group fighting the US occupation. (And the fact that a group has goals beyond resisting the occupation doesn't mean its not resisting the occupation; just like the fact that it had goals beyond opposing Saddam's regime doesn't mean that the same group wasn't opposed to Saddam's regime -- which had contained it far more effectively than the US occupation did.)
deleted 10y ago
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