4 ms·

Although I voted remain, I almost voted leave. There are good, very good reasons to leave. There are very very good reasons to remain and 'fix' from the inside.

by awjr 10y ago

Although I voted remain, I almost voted leave. There are good, very good reasons to leave. There are very very good reasons to remain and 'fix' from the inside. However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots. I suggested we need to understand why people voted leave. I tried to point out that the rise of the far right within Europe might be down to EU policies. I think there are some big issues within Europe as described by Tony Benn https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=f0wFii8klNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=f0wFii8klNg Of interest there are rumours that the EU is to announce a superstate http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-... So maybe, just maybe, the leavers have it right. Do we want to be living in the Unites States of EU or do we want countries that identify as European and trade and travel equally between them all? We live within a democracy and the public have spoken. Our politicians should execute the will of the people.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Er, the Leave campaign was expressly against free travel, and it's kind of silly to think you'd get the same trade terms leaving the EU. So the choice you provide to support the idea that maybe the leavers have it right is neither one the leavers are offering (on the travel part) nor one that is remotely realistic on either point as a result of voting leave (it's something that might have been achievable by staying in and advocating a different course for the EU.) And you live within a representative, rather than direct, democracy which features non-binding referenda; the people speak with binding authority through elections of representatives. There may be reasons that the government should put the results of the referendum into policy, but appeals to the nature of the system of government do not provide that reason.
- jazzyk 10y ago
  1. Free travel != immigration policy 2. Referendum > Representatives (the only reason we use representatives is because referendums don't scale)
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    In California, constitutionally, the power of referendum and initiative is reserved to the people, and does trump there per our the legislature. So, a system of government argument of the type you made would work for California. The UK, however, has no such reserved powers of the people, but instead has parliamentary supremacy. The referendum is not, in that system, superior to the representatives.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots That is certainly wrong and pretty much bullshit. What is true, though, is that virtually all racist idiots voted leave. John Scalzi put it much more succinctly: (from http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/06/22/hey-scalzi-do-you-have-an-opinion-on-brexit/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/06/22/hey-scalzi-do-you-have...) : "Two, while not everyone who might vote “Leave” is an appalling racist and/or low-information nationalist, it’s pretty clear that nearly every appalling racist/low-info nationalist is voting “Leave,” and that the people engineering the Leave vote are perfectly happy to leverage those folks to get what they want. If you find yourself on the same side as appalling racists/ignorant “patriots”, you might ask yourself why, and additionally whether you might be more appalling and/or ignorant than you’d like to admit."
scholia 10y ago
> Of interest there are rumours that the EU is to announce a superstate http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum* http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum* The Express is a provably unreliable source with no interest in telling the truth about anything beyond the football scores.
- awjr 10y ago
  Accepted. Definitely pinch of salt.

by awjr 10y ago

dragonwriter 10y ago

Er, the Leave campaign was expressly against free travel, and it's kind of silly to think you'd get the same trade terms leaving the EU. So the choice you provide to support the idea that maybe the leavers have it right is neither one the leavers are offering (on the travel part) nor one that is remotely realistic on either point as a result of voting leave (it's something that might have been achievable by staying in and advocating a different course for the EU.) And you live within a representative, rather than direct, democracy which features non-binding referenda; the people speak with binding authority through elections of representatives. There may be reasons that the government should put the results of the referendum into policy, but appeals to the nature of the system of government do not provide that reason.

jazzyk 10y ago
1. Free travel != immigration policy 2. Referendum > Representatives (the only reason we use representatives is because referendums don't scale)
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  In California, constitutionally, the power of referendum and initiative is reserved to the people, and does trump there per our the legislature. So, a system of government argument of the type you made would work for California. The UK, however, has no such reserved powers of the people, but instead has parliamentary supremacy. The referendum is not, in that system, superior to the representatives.

CaptainZapp 10y ago

However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots That is certainly wrong and pretty much bullshit. What is true, though, is that virtually all racist idiots voted leave. John Scalzi put it much more succinctly: (from http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/06/22/hey-scalzi-do-you-have-an-opinion-on-brexit/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/06/22/hey-scalzi-do-you-have...) : "Two, while not everyone who might vote “Leave” is an appalling racist and/or low-information nationalist, it’s pretty clear that nearly every appalling racist/low-info nationalist is voting “Leave,” and that the people engineering the Leave vote are perfectly happy to leverage those folks to get what they want. If you find yourself on the same side as appalling racists/ignorant “patriots”, you might ask yourself why, and additionally whether you might be more appalling and/or ignorant than you’d like to admit."

scholia 10y ago

> Of interest there are rumours that the EU is to announce a superstate http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum* http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum* The Express is a provably unreliable source with no interest in telling the truth about anything beyond the football scores.

awjr 10y ago
Accepted. Definitely pinch of salt.