4 ms·

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lo

by airesQ 10y ago

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals with that market). By the investment that flows to UK (the FDI). By being part of continent that is much more prosperous then it would be otherwise. The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK. Leave says that the UK has too many migrants, but it has fewer migrants than Ireland, Austria, Norway, Switzerland. Roughly the same number as France and Germany. The Leave camp doesn't have a plan and is awfully misinformed as to how the world works. It is a populist movement and that is all there is to it. Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent. In theory everyone in Spain can move to Malta. Of course this would never happen in practice. But if the people in Malta are worried. The EU should consider providing them the legal means to deal with that hypothetical scenario. Instead of saying, its free movement, and that's it.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "is just a meme" Yeah, it's just a meme... just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme... or that all Leave campaigners are racist/stupid is just a meme...
- wanda 10y ago
  If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid. You might get the same deal, but not a better one. It's just as irrational as an England supporter believing that England can win Euro 2016 after being knocked out. The Leave campaign and the referendum have both been engineered to rid Britain of both UKIP and Euroscepticism, one way or the other. The only good thing that will result from Brexit will be the disappearance of Nigel Farage, who will no longer have a reason to exist. Cameron has left article 50 inactive — more or less guaranteeing a Brexit trial period as far as the markets are concerned, and also guaranteeing a second referendum in the form of a Conservative leadership contest and subsequently a general election, with manifestos promising to initiate or cancel Brexit. Worst case scenario, on a global scale, UK fares well and EU starts to crack — Leave campaign was right (against all the odds and math) and article 50 is triggered. Best case scenario, UK fares badly, for EU it's business as usual, article 50 never activated, people vote for reformed Conservatives or Labour to cancel Brexit with landslide after people suffered with pricy food and clothing for months. For a damage control strategy to handle the result of a fundamentally terrible decision — to ask the masses a question without a definition of a meaningful majority — it's actually not bad.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid." It's not all about economics. There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter). Perhaps if you took the time into understanding the problems that exist in the EU you'd see this too. I'd be happy to explain further if you wanted to understand my own position.
    - Oletros 10y ago
      > There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter). I would like to know those reasons, thanks. Almost what I have read from the leave camp are economics, immigration and some nebulous freedom.
      - dalke 10y ago
        The "Left Leave" movement believes the EU is antidemocratic, and designed to maintain price stability, not benefit the social good. Quoting http://www.leftleave.org/seven-more-myths-about-the-eu/ http://www.leftleave.org/seven-more-myths-about-the-eu/ : > Those fundamental treaties severely limit the ability of EU member state governments to fund public investment, rescue failing companies and industries, save jobs or use public ownership for wider economic, social and environmental purposes. Should Britain elect a left or progressive government, the treaties will act as a strait-jacket on its policies, which could only be removed if every other EU member state government agrees to treaty change. While it's true that this still concerns "economics, immigration and some nebulous freedom", the argument is that the EU policies aren't left enough, and, for example, restrict the right of refugees. Quoting from http://www.leftleave.org/the-eu-ratcheting-up-racism/ http://www.leftleave.org/the-eu-ratcheting-up-racism/ : > ... the fact that is that the biggest ratcheting up of the attack on migrants has just been pushed through by the European Union; the treaty arranged by Angela Merkel between the EU and Turkey. That ripped up long established rights of refugees fleeing war and means those in Greece will face deportation back to Turkey, itself becoming less stable, and new arrivals will now be put in detention camps unlike before. The corruption behind all this, with the EU bribing the Turks to sign, speaks volumes about the undemocratic nature of the EU. And yet there are those who think Farage is the main driver of anti-migrant racism, not noticing he’s been sidelined and could only dream of doing something as despicable as fixing that treaty with Turkey. Here is an interview (with transcript) of people for a "Left Exit", http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/24/debate_after_shocking_vote_can_uks http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/24/debate_after_shocking_... . Leftist parties in other countries have a similar anti-EU positions. However, they are, as far as I can tell, quite the minority.
- Oletros 10y ago
  > just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme This is not what has been said, what has been said is that UK can't have the same trade deals they have right now without the duties they have right now.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    The suggested implications that arise from leaving have been heavily based on the perceived damage to the economy. The basis for those implications has always been the volume of trade the UK does with the EU. Even if people aren't outright suggesting that trade will drop to zero, there's a reason that no indications are given to how much trade is likely to drop, and instead the volume of current trade is provided in its place. This all comes back to media manipulation. Sometimes the media doesn't lie to you directly, they lie through omission. For example, take a look at this comedy sketch from The Guardian about the European Court of Human Rights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA This video was brought out at the time when the EU referendum was being publicly discussed. It seems to make a good case for staying in the EU, right? However, there's one key bit of information that is omitted from the video, the European Convention on Human Rights which forms the legal underpinnings of the European Court of Human Rights was negotiated outside the EU through the Council of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe Do you see how, in the context when it was released, that the video could be misleading, even when there weren't any direct lies in the video (that I'm aware of)? I'd suggest it'd be easy to assume after watching the video that giving up the EU also means giving up the European Convention on Human Rights, even when that's not the case.
jacquesm 10y ago
> Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent. This is part of the problem. It would not be fair. The UK already had a special position, with many advantages that other EU countries did not have as a compromise. A line was drawn and that apparently was not enough for the UK. And no, not everybody wants to move to the UK.
hardlianotion 10y ago
"EU structures are much more democratic than the EU." This is also simply a meme, and normally quoted in knee-jerk reflex to an utterance of the other.
throwaway987611 10y ago
> The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK. I beg to differ. The Eurocrats in Brussels who are unelected. Wanted Britian out immediately after the result. Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. For them, the UK is 25% of their export market. I am sure other German manufacturers are not too happy with the result either. The UK is simply in a better position than the EU. Now more than ever. Think about all those directives the EU placed on the UK. Now they can be all changed. Think about agriculture, fishing, energy, etc. Everything that HAD to be negotiated as an EU entity. That only things could have been pushed through the EU parliment is if all EU states agreed. That no other country had been penalised! Now, British interests come first. If the UK wants to do something and France or another country doesn't like it. Now it's tough luck. Now many times has France Veto'd something that Britian wanted before, because her interests were marginalised or a sector under threat? This is what people simply just don't understand. Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the hell out of them!
- Oletros 10y ago
  > Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. Wishful thinking or do you have any source for this? > The UK is simply in a better position than the EU. Now more than ever > Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the hell out of them! I really like to live in that fantasy world
- rimantas 10y ago
  > Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be > more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the > hell out of them! To be competetive UK will need favourable trade terms. And that will cost dearly with a side benefit that UK won't have any say in EU matters.
  - samdoidge 10y ago
    The UK has a trade deficit with the EU. They will be hurting themselves, in a federation which contains some struggling economies as it is.
Oletros 10y ago
> Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent. intransigent in what? I remember that they offer a new deal with more concessions to UK before the referendum

by airesQ 10y ago

ZenoArrow 10y ago

> "is just a meme" Yeah, it's just a meme... just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme... or that all Leave campaigners are racist/stupid is just a meme...

wanda 10y ago
If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid. You might get the same deal, but not a better one. It's just as irrational as an England supporter believing that England can win Euro 2016 after being knocked out. The Leave campaign and the referendum have both been engineered to rid Britain of both UKIP and Euroscepticism, one way or the other. The only good thing that will result from Brexit will be the disappearance of Nigel Farage, who will no longer have a reason to exist. Cameron has left article 50 inactive — more or less guaranteeing a Brexit trial period as far as the markets are concerned, and also guaranteeing a second referendum in the form of a Conservative leadership contest and subsequently a general election, with manifestos promising to initiate or cancel Brexit. Worst case scenario, on a global scale, UK fares well and EU starts to crack — Leave campaign was right (against all the odds and math) and article 50 is triggered. Best case scenario, UK fares badly, for EU it's business as usual, article 50 never activated, people vote for reformed Conservatives or Labour to cancel Brexit with landslide after people suffered with pricy food and clothing for months. For a damage control strategy to handle the result of a fundamentally terrible decision — to ask the masses a question without a definition of a meaningful majority — it's actually not bad.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid." It's not all about economics. There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter). Perhaps if you took the time into understanding the problems that exist in the EU you'd see this too. I'd be happy to explain further if you wanted to understand my own position.
  - Oletros 10y ago
    > There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter). I would like to know those reasons, thanks. Almost what I have read from the leave camp are economics, immigration and some nebulous freedom.
    - dalke 10y ago
      The "Left Leave" movement believes the EU is antidemocratic, and designed to maintain price stability, not benefit the social good. Quoting http://www.leftleave.org/seven-more-myths-about-the-eu/ http://www.leftleave.org/seven-more-myths-about-the-eu/ : > Those fundamental treaties severely limit the ability of EU member state governments to fund public investment, rescue failing companies and industries, save jobs or use public ownership for wider economic, social and environmental purposes. Should Britain elect a left or progressive government, the treaties will act as a strait-jacket on its policies, which could only be removed if every other EU member state government agrees to treaty change. While it's true that this still concerns "economics, immigration and some nebulous freedom", the argument is that the EU policies aren't left enough, and, for example, restrict the right of refugees. Quoting from http://www.leftleave.org/the-eu-ratcheting-up-racism/ http://www.leftleave.org/the-eu-ratcheting-up-racism/ : > ... the fact that is that the biggest ratcheting up of the attack on migrants has just been pushed through by the European Union; the treaty arranged by Angela Merkel between the EU and Turkey. That ripped up long established rights of refugees fleeing war and means those in Greece will face deportation back to Turkey, itself becoming less stable, and new arrivals will now be put in detention camps unlike before. The corruption behind all this, with the EU bribing the Turks to sign, speaks volumes about the undemocratic nature of the EU. And yet there are those who think Farage is the main driver of anti-migrant racism, not noticing he’s been sidelined and could only dream of doing something as despicable as fixing that treaty with Turkey. Here is an interview (with transcript) of people for a "Left Exit", http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/24/debate_after_shocking_vote_can_uks http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/24/debate_after_shocking_... . Leftist parties in other countries have a similar anti-EU positions. However, they are, as far as I can tell, quite the minority.
Oletros 10y ago
> just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme This is not what has been said, what has been said is that UK can't have the same trade deals they have right now without the duties they have right now.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  The suggested implications that arise from leaving have been heavily based on the perceived damage to the economy. The basis for those implications has always been the volume of trade the UK does with the EU. Even if people aren't outright suggesting that trade will drop to zero, there's a reason that no indications are given to how much trade is likely to drop, and instead the volume of current trade is provided in its place. This all comes back to media manipulation. Sometimes the media doesn't lie to you directly, they lie through omission. For example, take a look at this comedy sketch from The Guardian about the European Court of Human Rights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA This video was brought out at the time when the EU referendum was being publicly discussed. It seems to make a good case for staying in the EU, right? However, there's one key bit of information that is omitted from the video, the European Convention on Human Rights which forms the legal underpinnings of the European Court of Human Rights was negotiated outside the EU through the Council of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe Do you see how, in the context when it was released, that the video could be misleading, even when there weren't any direct lies in the video (that I'm aware of)? I'd suggest it'd be easy to assume after watching the video that giving up the EU also means giving up the European Convention on Human Rights, even when that's not the case.

jacquesm 10y ago

> Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent. This is part of the problem. It would not be fair. The UK already had a special position, with many advantages that other EU countries did not have as a compromise. A line was drawn and that apparently was not enough for the UK. And no, not everybody wants to move to the UK.

hardlianotion 10y ago

"EU structures are much more democratic than the EU." This is also simply a meme, and normally quoted in knee-jerk reflex to an utterance of the other.

throwaway987611 10y ago

> The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK. I beg to differ. The Eurocrats in Brussels who are unelected. Wanted Britian out immediately after the result. Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. For them, the UK is 25% of their export market. I am sure other German manufacturers are not too happy with the result either. The UK is simply in a better position than the EU. Now more than ever. Think about all those directives the EU placed on the UK. Now they can be all changed. Think about agriculture, fishing, energy, etc. Everything that HAD to be negotiated as an EU entity. That only things could have been pushed through the EU parliment is if all EU states agreed. That no other country had been penalised! Now, British interests come first. If the UK wants to do something and France or another country doesn't like it. Now it's tough luck. Now many times has France Veto'd something that Britian wanted before, because her interests were marginalised or a sector under threat? This is what people simply just don't understand. Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the hell out of them!

Oletros 10y ago
> Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. Wishful thinking or do you have any source for this? > The UK is simply in a better position than the EU. Now more than ever > Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the hell out of them! I really like to live in that fantasy world
rimantas 10y ago
> Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be > more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the > hell out of them! To be competetive UK will need favourable trade terms. And that will cost dearly with a side benefit that UK won't have any say in EU matters.
- samdoidge 10y ago
  The UK has a trade deficit with the EU. They will be hurting themselves, in a federation which contains some struggling economies as it is.

Oletros 10y ago

> Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent. intransigent in what? I remember that they offer a new deal with more concessions to UK before the referendum