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Eh.. Berlin is a freaking bad place for tech-talent to be in. I relocated there and worked for about 6 months before I actually came to the conclusion that it i

Eh.. Berlin is a freaking bad place for tech-talent to be in. I relocated there and worked for about 6 months before I actually came to the conclusion that it is nothing more than a rip off. I would happily move to the UK over Berlin in 9.5 out of 10 times. The German tax rates for singles are ridiculous (40+%) and the salaries are way below what the UK pays. In addition, the German culture's work mentality is very similar to that of factories. On top of that, the benefits are non-existent compared to the UK (let alone the US). http://demonshalo.com/the-sad-state-of-the-european-tech-scene/ http://demonshalo.com/the-sad-state-of-the-european-tech-sce...

collyw 10y ago
Salaries are way below what the UK pays, or way below what London pays? London often pays close to double other parts of the UK.
- ygra 10y ago
  May correlate with cost of living, maybe?
- demonshalo 10y ago
  I usually find similar cities and compare them to each other. London is 2-3x better salary wise than Berlin. If you compare other parts of the UK with other parts of Germany, that gap might get smaller but I would argue that in my experience, the gap will most often be around 2x
  - rostigerpudel 10y ago
    The payscale links you provide in your blog provide some insight into why you seem to think that. In all of your examples (see links below for the lazy), the salary for a Senior Software Engineer is slightly below what payscale _thinks_ is the average national salary. The huge difference really lies in how payscale determines the "salary" in each country. So, when compared to the average (which factors in cost of living, social security etc.), the salary really isn't that much better in the US: US: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... UK: http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... FR: http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... SE: http://www.payscale.com/research/SE/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/SE/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... DE: http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Senior_Software_Engi...
pjmlp 10y ago
> German culture's work mentality is very similar to that of factories. Which is very positive for workers. I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions. I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to get reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid for it.
- _pmf_ 10y ago
  A unionized assembly line worker for Daimler effectively makes more than a junior or mid level software developer.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    One can always join IG Metal or similar union, and enjoy the same tariff regulations as a software developer that the assembly line worker has.
  - golergka 10y ago
    That example perfectly illustrates what's so bad about unions.
    - blub 10y ago
      Daimler seems to be doing quite fine financially. I guess the workers are fine too, given that they are probably earning a good wage. What seems to be the problem?
- demonshalo 10y ago
  > Which is very positive for workers. for YOU! not workers. Thinking that what you like is good for everyone else is rather narcissistic don't you think? > I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions. What does unions have to do with anything? ... I was referring to the work mentality as a cultural phenomenon. It is nothing to do with unions -.- > I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to get reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid for it. That's what I am talking about. Your work for you is just that, work. Which is perfectly fine. However, There is no way for Germany to ever get a remotely interesting tech scene with that mentality in place. That's not how you foster a startup culture.
Chyzwar 10y ago
Tax rate is almost the same UK 40% for £43,001. Everything in Berlin is cheaper: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
- marklit 10y ago
  At £43,0001 / year in the UK you'll take home 75% of that. https://listentotaxman.com/43001 https://listentotaxman.com/43001
  - demonshalo 10y ago
    https://listentotaxman.com/90000 https://listentotaxman.com/90000 I don't understand how anyone can pick Berlin over the UK after seeing this!
    - pantalaimon 10y ago
      Maybe there is more in life than money?
    - Chyzwar 10y ago
      Because raw taxation numbers do not describe everything. Germany is still cheaper by almost 30% in most things. You also pay for unemployment insurance (60% of net salary after year), better family benefits, cheap childcare, better Health Service, decent retirement etc.
uola 10y ago
I've been eyeing Berlin for a while, but hasn't been convinced yet. That said, I feel your arguments are very generic. You say the attitude is all wrong, but then you expect high salaries by default? I've made very good money in Europe (like 1% income before 30 good). But that was by joining the industry right after high school, so when my friends were done with with university I (and some of my other friends) had already been working 50 hour weeks for 5 years and were a partners at a consultancy company. Attitudes are "soft problems" that are great for people who are driven. If you have more concrete arguments against Berlin I would be interested in hearing them.
- lujim 10y ago
  To be fair "attitude" wasn't his only argument. He cited what seem to be concrete arguments which included lower pay, higher taxes, and fewer benefits relative to the UK and US. You countered by questioning why he expects high salaries then provided your own unique experience for becoming a partner at a consultancy company. What are the best prospects for your friends who did attend university or anyone else who didn't work 50 hour weeks for 5 years and become a partner at a consultancy company?
  - uola 10y ago
    No, I don't think his arguments were concrete. 1. Fix the relatively low tech wages [in Europe] You can make enough money in Europe to have enough runway to start a company. Especially if you give up working 40 hour weeks and having 6 weeks vacation. 2. Taxes [are high] Many places in Europe have lower taxes than the US. Startups rarely feel the effects of taxes since they spend all their money on growth. To the extent they do it's just another cost. 3. The anti-startup culture [is bad] In practical terms European welfare states are far more accepting of failure than other parts of the world. 4. Severe lack of capital This can be a concrete problem, but most people making this statement have not saved their money and vacation time for at least year, taken leave from their job and started a company. So why should investors invest in them?
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
rubber_duck 10y ago
This pretty much - huge taxes, low pay, low quality work where skill hardly even matters and on top of that every programmer speaks English, German not so much. Zero reasons to chose Germany as a programmer looking for a place to live in EU.
- uola 10y ago
  Every place has flaws, what counts is where it places on a list. What other place (except ones current one) would you suggest being better?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - rubber_duck 10y ago
    I think Dublin should be your go-to right now - English speaking, tech giants are there.
    - tukum 10y ago
      And it has expensive housing too :) [1] [1] https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental
      - rubber_duck 10y ago
        It comes with the territory unfortunately, still offset by the pros IMO.
- demonshalo 10y ago
  That's another thing that I forgot to mention. Germans do not speak English. Or at least, they choose not to due to national pride. The place really felt unwelcoming. It is god damn impossible to find a banker that speaks English... I had to book an appointment for a translator while opening a bank account because their regular staff could not answer the most basic questions in English. That is insane!
ashray 10y ago
I read your article and found it quite interesting. However, all the points you raised would have been more interesting if you'd have gone deeper into them. Like raising tech wages. Now, that might attract talent but wouldn't that also raise the bar for starting up? One of the problems with SF startups at the moment is that it's impossible to start anything without tons of funding (see recent Sergey Brin article). Taxes are another very complex issue. In general though we could go circles around each point and never end up with much of a conclusion. I do agree that capital is very hard to acquire outside of Silicon Valley and the anti-startup culture is strong. But I don't think Berlin is a bad place to be in. In fact, at the moment I think Berlin is one of the best places to hack something together because there is tons of talent around and they would not need to be compensated much (low cost of living). You could do the same under a Delaware corp hiring people in Berlin as freelancers and you'd still be able to get US VC investment if you're solving a problem in the states and have customers there.
- demonshalo 10y ago
  > I read your article and found it quite interesting. Thanks! > Now, that might attract talent but wouldn't that also raise the bar for starting up? One of the problems with SF startups at the moment is that it's impossible to start anything without tons of funding. Taxes are another very complex issue. In general though we could go circles around each point and never end up with much of a conclusion. You are absolutely right about that. However, it is apparent, at least to me, that the middle class in Europe has no savings. And that is the reason for the lack of capital. Both income and consumption is highly taxed on all levels which makes it hard to save up and invest over time for the average middle-class worker. When I was in the US, My community college teacher had money saved up that he wanted to invest, my neighbors, colleges and everyone I knew was saving up in a hope for a good deal to show up. Just as an example. I am a 1% income earner (in my age group) in Stockholm right now. And I can BARELY save up 10k USD/year. Those 10k would basically be burned in the 1st month of operation if I decide to start a business due to how expensive and taxed everything is. All of this makes it impossible for someone like me to take a chance and try something out in this hostile climate. > But I don't think Berlin is a bad place to be in. In fact, at the moment I think Berlin is one of the best places to hack something together because there is tons of talent around and they would not need to be compensated much From my personal experience, I barely saw any talent in Berlin. I consulted for a few companies there and the general software/code quality was so bad for some reason. English literacy was also another major problem that was rather shocking to me. Most of the German developers I spoke to barely knew English, which to me was so surreal :S > You could do the same under a Delaware corp hiring people in Berlin as freelancers and you'd still be able to get US VC investment if you're solving a problem in the states and have customers there. If I had a US visa, I wouldn't need to do any of that :P but that H1B program is just a pain in the rear.

collyw 10y ago

Salaries are way below what the UK pays, or way below what London pays? London often pays close to double other parts of the UK.

ygra 10y ago
May correlate with cost of living, maybe?
demonshalo 10y ago
I usually find similar cities and compare them to each other. London is 2-3x better salary wise than Berlin. If you compare other parts of the UK with other parts of Germany, that gap might get smaller but I would argue that in my experience, the gap will most often be around 2x
- rostigerpudel 10y ago
  The payscale links you provide in your blog provide some insight into why you seem to think that. In all of your examples (see links below for the lazy), the salary for a Senior Software Engineer is slightly below what payscale _thinks_ is the average national salary. The huge difference really lies in how payscale determines the "salary" in each country. So, when compared to the average (which factors in cost of living, social security etc.), the salary really isn't that much better in the US: US: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... UK: http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... FR: http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... SE: http://www.payscale.com/research/SE/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/SE/Job=Senior_Software_Engi... DE: http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Senior_Software_Engi...

pjmlp 10y ago

> German culture's work mentality is very similar to that of factories. Which is very positive for workers. I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions. I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to get reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid for it.

_pmf_ 10y ago
A unionized assembly line worker for Daimler effectively makes more than a junior or mid level software developer.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  One can always join IG Metal or similar union, and enjoy the same tariff regulations as a software developer that the assembly line worker has.
- golergka 10y ago
  That example perfectly illustrates what's so bad about unions.
  - blub 10y ago
    Daimler seems to be doing quite fine financially. I guess the workers are fine too, given that they are probably earning a good wage. What seems to be the problem?
demonshalo 10y ago
> Which is very positive for workers. for YOU! not workers. Thinking that what you like is good for everyone else is rather narcissistic don't you think? > I rather have that than the exploitation of workers in IT without unions. What does unions have to do with anything? ... I was referring to the work mentality as a cultural phenomenon. It is nothing to do with unions -.- > I can enjoy my evenings and weekends without spending a second thinking to get reached from work, and if I need to be on call I will get properly paid for it. That's what I am talking about. Your work for you is just that, work. Which is perfectly fine. However, There is no way for Germany to ever get a remotely interesting tech scene with that mentality in place. That's not how you foster a startup culture.

Chyzwar 10y ago

Tax rate is almost the same UK 40% for £43,001. Everything in Berlin is cheaper: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

marklit 10y ago
At £43,0001 / year in the UK you'll take home 75% of that. https://listentotaxman.com/43001 https://listentotaxman.com/43001
- demonshalo 10y ago
  https://listentotaxman.com/90000 https://listentotaxman.com/90000 I don't understand how anyone can pick Berlin over the UK after seeing this!
  - pantalaimon 10y ago
    Maybe there is more in life than money?
  - Chyzwar 10y ago
    Because raw taxation numbers do not describe everything. Germany is still cheaper by almost 30% in most things. You also pay for unemployment insurance (60% of net salary after year), better family benefits, cheap childcare, better Health Service, decent retirement etc.

uola 10y ago

I've been eyeing Berlin for a while, but hasn't been convinced yet. That said, I feel your arguments are very generic. You say the attitude is all wrong, but then you expect high salaries by default? I've made very good money in Europe (like 1% income before 30 good). But that was by joining the industry right after high school, so when my friends were done with with university I (and some of my other friends) had already been working 50 hour weeks for 5 years and were a partners at a consultancy company. Attitudes are "soft problems" that are great for people who are driven. If you have more concrete arguments against Berlin I would be interested in hearing them.

lujim 10y ago
To be fair "attitude" wasn't his only argument. He cited what seem to be concrete arguments which included lower pay, higher taxes, and fewer benefits relative to the UK and US. You countered by questioning why he expects high salaries then provided your own unique experience for becoming a partner at a consultancy company. What are the best prospects for your friends who did attend university or anyone else who didn't work 50 hour weeks for 5 years and become a partner at a consultancy company?
- uola 10y ago
  No, I don't think his arguments were concrete. 1. Fix the relatively low tech wages [in Europe] You can make enough money in Europe to have enough runway to start a company. Especially if you give up working 40 hour weeks and having 6 weeks vacation. 2. Taxes [are high] Many places in Europe have lower taxes than the US. Startups rarely feel the effects of taxes since they spend all their money on growth. To the extent they do it's just another cost. 3. The anti-startup culture [is bad] In practical terms European welfare states are far more accepting of failure than other parts of the world. 4. Severe lack of capital This can be a concrete problem, but most people making this statement have not saved their money and vacation time for at least year, taken leave from their job and started a company. So why should investors invest in them?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago

rubber_duck 10y ago

This pretty much - huge taxes, low pay, low quality work where skill hardly even matters and on top of that every programmer speaks English, German not so much. Zero reasons to chose Germany as a programmer looking for a place to live in EU.

uola 10y ago
Every place has flaws, what counts is where it places on a list. What other place (except ones current one) would you suggest being better?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  I think Dublin should be your go-to right now - English speaking, tech giants are there.
  - tukum 10y ago
    And it has expensive housing too :) [1] [1] https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental
    - rubber_duck 10y ago
      It comes with the territory unfortunately, still offset by the pros IMO.
demonshalo 10y ago
That's another thing that I forgot to mention. Germans do not speak English. Or at least, they choose not to due to national pride. The place really felt unwelcoming. It is god damn impossible to find a banker that speaks English... I had to book an appointment for a translator while opening a bank account because their regular staff could not answer the most basic questions in English. That is insane!

ashray 10y ago

I read your article and found it quite interesting. However, all the points you raised would have been more interesting if you'd have gone deeper into them. Like raising tech wages. Now, that might attract talent but wouldn't that also raise the bar for starting up? One of the problems with SF startups at the moment is that it's impossible to start anything without tons of funding (see recent Sergey Brin article). Taxes are another very complex issue. In general though we could go circles around each point and never end up with much of a conclusion. I do agree that capital is very hard to acquire outside of Silicon Valley and the anti-startup culture is strong. But I don't think Berlin is a bad place to be in. In fact, at the moment I think Berlin is one of the best places to hack something together because there is tons of talent around and they would not need to be compensated much (low cost of living). You could do the same under a Delaware corp hiring people in Berlin as freelancers and you'd still be able to get US VC investment if you're solving a problem in the states and have customers there.

demonshalo 10y ago
> I read your article and found it quite interesting. Thanks! > Now, that might attract talent but wouldn't that also raise the bar for starting up? One of the problems with SF startups at the moment is that it's impossible to start anything without tons of funding. Taxes are another very complex issue. In general though we could go circles around each point and never end up with much of a conclusion. You are absolutely right about that. However, it is apparent, at least to me, that the middle class in Europe has no savings. And that is the reason for the lack of capital. Both income and consumption is highly taxed on all levels which makes it hard to save up and invest over time for the average middle-class worker. When I was in the US, My community college teacher had money saved up that he wanted to invest, my neighbors, colleges and everyone I knew was saving up in a hope for a good deal to show up. Just as an example. I am a 1% income earner (in my age group) in Stockholm right now. And I can BARELY save up 10k USD/year. Those 10k would basically be burned in the 1st month of operation if I decide to start a business due to how expensive and taxed everything is. All of this makes it impossible for someone like me to take a chance and try something out in this hostile climate. > But I don't think Berlin is a bad place to be in. In fact, at the moment I think Berlin is one of the best places to hack something together because there is tons of talent around and they would not need to be compensated much From my personal experience, I barely saw any talent in Berlin. I consulted for a few companies there and the general software/code quality was so bad for some reason. English literacy was also another major problem that was rather shocking to me. Most of the German developers I spoke to barely knew English, which to me was so surreal :S > You could do the same under a Delaware corp hiring people in Berlin as freelancers and you'd still be able to get US VC investment if you're solving a problem in the states and have customers there. If I had a US visa, I wouldn't need to do any of that :P but that H1B program is just a pain in the rear.