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Nice idea. Will test it out. Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future (vector/matrix is another, tent and even twitter used

Nice idea. Will test it out. Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future (vector/matrix is another, tent and even twitter used to be)

Dzugaru 10y ago
> Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future Why? It was made by VK (russian Facebook) devs and there are many concerns about its security.
- runn1ng 10y ago
  Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/..., it has a great robot API, is continuously updated on all platforms, is adding features fast, it has a great GUI, it "just works" everywhere. Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal, but then synchronization between devices is PITA and the rate of new features is slow. It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel Durov after he escaped from Russia.
  - embik 10y ago
    > Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/.. [...] > Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal [...] Actually, WhatsApp has implemented Signal's encryption and they worked together with Moxie Marlinspike (the developer of Signal) who verified those claims (or something along these lines. I'm not 100% sure this is how it happened, please take it with a grain of salt). So at least one popular messenger implements security that is better than Telegram.
    - sz4kerto 10y ago
      BTW, if we treat any claims about privacy and security with extreme skepticism (rightfully), then why do we trust Moxie and Facebook without being able to verify their claims? (I'm not saying that Moxie et al. are untrustworthy.)
      - lucb1e 10y ago
        Especially when we have open source alternatives like all Telegram clients that implement MTProto (Telegram's end to end encryption protocol).
        embik 10y ago
        MTProto isn't considered secure[0], so I'd rather trust someone (Moxie) who actually developed open source encryption[1] that is considered secure. I'm not blindly following Moxie here but I'd argue that it's in his own interest to only verify correct claims - reputation is your CV in cryptography. Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. [0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegram-secure https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr... [1] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-c https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-c
        sz4kerto 10y ago
        So you trust a person's word (believing that telling the truth is in his interest) more than an open client? I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me. > Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. Why can't you imagine that e.g. Moxie has been blackmailed/etc. by some government authority? Again, I have no problem with Moxie's person in particular, I'm sure he would also agree that a single persons claims should not be trusted automatically.
        embik 10y ago
        > I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me. Please read the link I provided before[0], it features links to a bunch of people saying Telegram is not secure[1][2][3][4]. It's not just Moxie. I actually have not seen any expert saying that Telegram is secure, but I'm interested in such thing. As the Telegram protocol is open, everybody is able to see how flawed it is. We know that. With a closed client that allegedly implements a secure encryption method (we also know it's good because it's open as well) there's a chance it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work, but there's also the chance it's working as intended. I'd rather take one percent chance over zero. [0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegram-secure https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr... [1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177.pdf [2] https://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-maths/ https://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-ba... [3] http://www.alexrad.me/discourse/a-264-attack-on-telegram-and-why-a-super-villain-doesnt-need-it-to-read-your-telegram-chats.html http://www.alexrad.me/discourse/a-264-attack-on-telegram-and... [4] http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/ http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/
    - nicolapcweek94 10y ago
      yeah, but it's not cross device. web/desktop clients use your phone to talk to whatsapp's servers, while telegram is actually cross platform with working message sync
  - lambdadmitry 10y ago
    >It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel Durov after he escaped from Russia. It's Durov's bullshit. Telegram is developed one floor beneath the VK office in Saint-Petersburg, Russia. Moreover, Durov himself often visits the office. Sources: [1] [2] So yeah, between this and "MTProto is secure" I'm not sure if one can trust any other claim about Telegram's security (like "your chat logs are secure on our servers"). [1] https://tjournal.ru/p/durov-back-in-ussr https://tjournal.ru/p/durov-back-in-ussr (in Russian, sorry) [2] I was there
    - runn1ng 10y ago
      Interesting, thanks for that info. I wondered who is financing Telegram since it's really moving fast and it has no apparent source of revenue; it makes sense that it's even coming from Russian government, since they want alternatives to US-owned services.
      - playworker 10y ago
        https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-out-of-this https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-o...
- lucb1e 10y ago
  1. It's not by VK. 2. "Many concerns" only accumulate to one bad default setting (namely end to end encryption opt-in). People should stop spreading the same FUD over and over, it makes me wonder whether those people posting messages on social media to influence online conversions also post on HN.

Nice idea. Will test it out. Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future (vector/matrix is another, tent and even twitter used to be)

Dzugaru 10y ago

> Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future Why? It was made by VK (russian Facebook) devs and there are many concerns about its security.

runn1ng 10y ago
Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/..., it has a great robot API, is continuously updated on all platforms, is adding features fast, it has a great GUI, it "just works" everywhere. Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal, but then synchronization between devices is PITA and the rate of new features is slow. It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel Durov after he escaped from Russia.
- embik 10y ago
  > Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/.. [...] > Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal [...] Actually, WhatsApp has implemented Signal's encryption and they worked together with Moxie Marlinspike (the developer of Signal) who verified those claims (or something along these lines. I'm not 100% sure this is how it happened, please take it with a grain of salt). So at least one popular messenger implements security that is better than Telegram.
  - sz4kerto 10y ago
    BTW, if we treat any claims about privacy and security with extreme skepticism (rightfully), then why do we trust Moxie and Facebook without being able to verify their claims? (I'm not saying that Moxie et al. are untrustworthy.)
    - lucb1e 10y ago
      Especially when we have open source alternatives like all Telegram clients that implement MTProto (Telegram's end to end encryption protocol).
      - embik 10y ago
        MTProto isn't considered secure[0], so I'd rather trust someone (Moxie) who actually developed open source encryption[1] that is considered secure. I'm not blindly following Moxie here but I'd argue that it's in his own interest to only verify correct claims - reputation is your CV in cryptography. Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. [0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegram-secure https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr... [1] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-c https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-c
        sz4kerto 10y ago
        So you trust a person's word (believing that telling the truth is in his interest) more than an open client? I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me. > Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. Why can't you imagine that e.g. Moxie has been blackmailed/etc. by some government authority? Again, I have no problem with Moxie's person in particular, I'm sure he would also agree that a single persons claims should not be trusted automatically.
        embik 10y ago
        > I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me. Please read the link I provided before[0], it features links to a bunch of people saying Telegram is not secure[1][2][3][4]. It's not just Moxie. I actually have not seen any expert saying that Telegram is secure, but I'm interested in such thing. As the Telegram protocol is open, everybody is able to see how flawed it is. We know that. With a closed client that allegedly implements a secure encryption method (we also know it's good because it's open as well) there's a chance it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work, but there's also the chance it's working as intended. I'd rather take one percent chance over zero. [0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegram-secure https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr... [1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177.pdf [2] https://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-maths/ https://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-ba... [3] http://www.alexrad.me/discourse/a-264-attack-on-telegram-and-why-a-super-villain-doesnt-need-it-to-read-your-telegram-chats.html http://www.alexrad.me/discourse/a-264-attack-on-telegram-and... [4] http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/ http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/
  - nicolapcweek94 10y ago
    yeah, but it's not cross device. web/desktop clients use your phone to talk to whatsapp's servers, while telegram is actually cross platform with working message sync
- lambdadmitry 10y ago
  >It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel Durov after he escaped from Russia. It's Durov's bullshit. Telegram is developed one floor beneath the VK office in Saint-Petersburg, Russia. Moreover, Durov himself often visits the office. Sources: [1] [2] So yeah, between this and "MTProto is secure" I'm not sure if one can trust any other claim about Telegram's security (like "your chat logs are secure on our servers"). [1] https://tjournal.ru/p/durov-back-in-ussr https://tjournal.ru/p/durov-back-in-ussr (in Russian, sorry) [2] I was there
  - runn1ng 10y ago
    Interesting, thanks for that info. I wondered who is financing Telegram since it's really moving fast and it has no apparent source of revenue; it makes sense that it's even coming from Russian government, since they want alternatives to US-owned services.
    - playworker 10y ago
      https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-out-of-this https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-you-going-to-make-money-o...
lucb1e 10y ago
1. It's not by VK. 2. "Many concerns" only accumulate to one bad default setting (namely end to end encryption opt-in). People should stop spreading the same FUD over and over, it makes me wonder whether those people posting messages on social media to influence online conversions also post on HN.