5 ms·

Can the European Union Learn from Switzerland? (2014)

38 points by trahn 10y ago

freekh 10y ago
Good read! Maybe it's my swiss blood but I have been thinking along the exact same lines this last week.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> A solution to more democracy in the EU could be bicameralism as practiced in Switzerland - or many other democracies for that matter - as proposed by federalists. Here the people of Europe would be represented in one body of the legislative and the nations in equal parts in the other. This is a shockingly good and after-the-fact obvious suggestion. Can someone help me understand why the Parliament (popular)/Council (national ministers) structure [1] isn't this? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_legislative_procedure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_legislative_p...
- Tomte 10y ago
  We kinda have it: the people are represented in the European Parliament and the nations in the European Commission.
- Bromskloss 10y ago
  Why is this obviously good?
known 10y ago
Internet has been UNITING the world. Hence it's prudent to DIVIDE nations into smaller countries to protect the interests of Common man.
known 10y ago
Internet has been UNITING the world. Hence it's prudent to DIVIDE nations into smaller countries to protect the interests of Common man.
saiya-jin 10y ago
short answer? not that much. longer - yes it's supremely well working society. society built from single atomic pieces called citizens. remove/change them, and whole thing will fall apart like house of cards. people here are given a lot of freedom, hence responsibility over their lives, ie through direct voting. as we saw with britain, similar approach clearly fails when tried even in another modern western country (yes I call it a failure, not because of result, but because the way whole thing has been done) I mean, this is the country that publicly voted NO to extend 4 weeks of paid vacation per year to 6. I don't know a single other place where people would vote against their own interests (maybe Singapore? but that's not democracy to start with). And countless other examples. this country was done via 800 years of struggle through violent events in Europe, and somehow it remained what it is now. you cannot expect to have this "national experience" present somewhere else, and randomly copy pasting something that makes sense here to other place won't work. because of people. don't get me wrong - I wish it would be possible, but I don't see any way.
- jernfrost 10y ago
  But that is exactly what the EU can learn from Switzerland. The need to build a culture of responsibility in democratic votes. The need for letting this thing take its time. Switzerland took a log time to mature. We should learn from this and not rush a much bigger superstate into existence.
- rdrock 10y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I admire the swiss. But attributing a nations success to higher moral standards of individual people is crazy. The swiss might exhibit admirable qualities worth emulating but those qualities might as well be the result of a rich and stable environment the country had over the generations. That environment was also bought by providing "safe havens for the wealth of dictators and despots, mobsters and arms dealers, corrupt officials, and tax cheats of all kinds" and staying equally un-committed to both sides in WW2 when one of them was Hitler is not something to write home either.
- misja111 10y ago
  I don't think Swiss people are inherently more responsible or morally on a higher level than other Europeans. How could they be? Switzerland is in the middle of Europe and through the ages many waves of immigration have occurred from all the neighboring countries. Even today almost 25% of Swiss people are immigrants! Why people in Switzerland seem to vote more responsibly than in other countries is exactly because they are getting more chances to vote. Give a person responsibility, and he will tend to act responsible. Treat a person like a child, and he will start to behave like one. This is IMO what is happening in the UK and in other countries. Many people voted against the 'sensible choice', against the intellectual elite as a protest, because they wanted to be heard. The answer is not to take away voting opportunities from people, but to give them more.
jernfrost 10y ago
Switzerland also moved far more slowly than the EU, and waited with common currency until cultural and political unification had come much further than EU today. I think one of the authors central themes was the need for pragmatism over ideology. I think that is the main problem with the EU today. Too many career politician with grand visions. We need people more rooted in reality who understand and respect national differences and don't pretend we are all so dam equal. To clarify, we are equal in value, but not in customs, expectations and nature. I think all Europeans want to be together, but we don't fully trust each other and that must be taken into account.
- seszett 10y ago
  > I think that is the main problem with the EU today. Too many career politician with grand visions. I have a lot of things to say about career politicians, but grand visions clearly isn't the first thing that comes to my mind. > We need people more rooted in reality I know many people who would say that Realpolitik and lack of ideals is actually what is poisoning the EU.
  - nairboon 10y ago
    It seems that the grand vision of EU politicians is a massive centralized government ruling over all of Europe. From their POV it might be a reasonable grand vision. It's interesting that the same idea for the Grande unification comes up at least once per century, just repacked in a different ideology.
  - jernfrost 10y ago
    I suppose it all depends on perspective. I just don't think the ever closer EU integration is driven by pragmatism. I think it is driven by grand visions for a superstate because they have this rosy idea of how nice it would be for all Europeans to share one country holding hands and singing happy songs. They don't seem to take any practical considerations to things like there are countries like Greece which simply hasn't solved the problem of collecting taxes and spending within means. 100 German economist signed a petition against Greece joining the Euro, because they said exactly what happened would happen. Instead the pragmatists were overruled by the dreamers. The ones who have suffered the most due to these dreamers are the Greeks themselves. Real love is setting proper boundaries and not just give into anybody's indulgences.

38 points by trahn 10y ago

Good read! Maybe it's my swiss blood but I have been thinking along the exact same lines this last week.

> A solution to more democracy in the EU could be bicameralism as practiced in Switzerland - or many other democracies for that matter - as proposed by federalists. Here the people of Europe would be represented in one body of the legislative and the nations in equal parts in the other. This is a shockingly good and after-the-fact obvious suggestion. Can someone help me understand why the Parliament (popular)/Council (national ministers) structure [1] isn't this? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_legislative_procedure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_legislative_p...

Tomte 10y ago
We kinda have it: the people are represented in the European Parliament and the nations in the European Commission.
Bromskloss 10y ago
Why is this obviously good?

known 10y ago

Internet has been UNITING the world. Hence it's prudent to DIVIDE nations into smaller countries to protect the interests of Common man.

known 10y ago

Internet has been UNITING the world. Hence it's prudent to DIVIDE nations into smaller countries to protect the interests of Common man.

saiya-jin 10y ago

short answer? not that much. longer - yes it's supremely well working society. society built from single atomic pieces called citizens. remove/change them, and whole thing will fall apart like house of cards. people here are given a lot of freedom, hence responsibility over their lives, ie through direct voting. as we saw with britain, similar approach clearly fails when tried even in another modern western country (yes I call it a failure, not because of result, but because the way whole thing has been done) I mean, this is the country that publicly voted NO to extend 4 weeks of paid vacation per year to 6. I don't know a single other place where people would vote against their own interests (maybe Singapore? but that's not democracy to start with). And countless other examples. this country was done via 800 years of struggle through violent events in Europe, and somehow it remained what it is now. you cannot expect to have this "national experience" present somewhere else, and randomly copy pasting something that makes sense here to other place won't work. because of people. don't get me wrong - I wish it would be possible, but I don't see any way.

jernfrost 10y ago
But that is exactly what the EU can learn from Switzerland. The need to build a culture of responsibility in democratic votes. The need for letting this thing take its time. Switzerland took a log time to mature. We should learn from this and not rush a much bigger superstate into existence.
rdrock 10y ago
Don't get me wrong, I admire the swiss. But attributing a nations success to higher moral standards of individual people is crazy. The swiss might exhibit admirable qualities worth emulating but those qualities might as well be the result of a rich and stable environment the country had over the generations. That environment was also bought by providing "safe havens for the wealth of dictators and despots, mobsters and arms dealers, corrupt officials, and tax cheats of all kinds" and staying equally un-committed to both sides in WW2 when one of them was Hitler is not something to write home either.
misja111 10y ago
I don't think Swiss people are inherently more responsible or morally on a higher level than other Europeans. How could they be? Switzerland is in the middle of Europe and through the ages many waves of immigration have occurred from all the neighboring countries. Even today almost 25% of Swiss people are immigrants! Why people in Switzerland seem to vote more responsibly than in other countries is exactly because they are getting more chances to vote. Give a person responsibility, and he will tend to act responsible. Treat a person like a child, and he will start to behave like one. This is IMO what is happening in the UK and in other countries. Many people voted against the 'sensible choice', against the intellectual elite as a protest, because they wanted to be heard. The answer is not to take away voting opportunities from people, but to give them more.

jernfrost 10y ago

Switzerland also moved far more slowly than the EU, and waited with common currency until cultural and political unification had come much further than EU today. I think one of the authors central themes was the need for pragmatism over ideology. I think that is the main problem with the EU today. Too many career politician with grand visions. We need people more rooted in reality who understand and respect national differences and don't pretend we are all so dam equal. To clarify, we are equal in value, but not in customs, expectations and nature. I think all Europeans want to be together, but we don't fully trust each other and that must be taken into account.

seszett 10y ago
> I think that is the main problem with the EU today. Too many career politician with grand visions. I have a lot of things to say about career politicians, but grand visions clearly isn't the first thing that comes to my mind. > We need people more rooted in reality I know many people who would say that Realpolitik and lack of ideals is actually what is poisoning the EU.
- nairboon 10y ago
  It seems that the grand vision of EU politicians is a massive centralized government ruling over all of Europe. From their POV it might be a reasonable grand vision. It's interesting that the same idea for the Grande unification comes up at least once per century, just repacked in a different ideology.
- jernfrost 10y ago
  I suppose it all depends on perspective. I just don't think the ever closer EU integration is driven by pragmatism. I think it is driven by grand visions for a superstate because they have this rosy idea of how nice it would be for all Europeans to share one country holding hands and singing happy songs. They don't seem to take any practical considerations to things like there are countries like Greece which simply hasn't solved the problem of collecting taxes and spending within means. 100 German economist signed a petition against Greece joining the Euro, because they said exactly what happened would happen. Instead the pragmatists were overruled by the dreamers. The ones who have suffered the most due to these dreamers are the Greeks themselves. Real love is setting proper boundaries and not just give into anybody's indulgences.