4 ms·

There are certainly places that will pay top dollars to hire the absolute top talent, think Putnam or acm winners. It just won't be a startup. It should be obvi

There are certainly places that will pay top dollars to hire the absolute top talent, think Putnam or acm winners. It just won't be a startup. It should be obvious why: startups don't have the capital or need to hire absolute best. It will more likely be a hedge fund. As a whole these startups with ridiculous expectations will have to face reality or suffer the consequences of slow hiring. They will lose in the long run.

michaelchisari 10y ago
Most likely they will. Maybe they won't, because part of the process is a certain indoctrination that their employees are more than just talented or clever, but are actually special. And you can convince an employee of a lot of things if you start by convincing them that they're special. Mostly, though, I worry about the ripple effect that's been on the industry. I have friends who are in the medical field, dealing directly with surgeries, childbirth, life-saving (or potentially ending) drugs, and they're taken aback by the kind of interview requirements that so many tech companies have. A Nurse Practitioner can get a job in an ER in a heartbeat, but a front-end developer building React components needs a collective two full days of interviews? Something about that just doesn't make sense to me.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  A big difference is the amount of formal certification. A diploma from a med school and associated residency is sufficient to expect that the person knows their speciality and is able to treat people from day one. A CS diploma and related working experience is some indication, but (sadly) often doesn't ensure that the candidate is able to code their way out of a wet paper bag and will be able to perform reasonably well (not 10x well but 1x or even 80%) after a month or two of on-site adaptation. Our industry, unlike many others, doesn't have a good (centralized?) way to approve qualifications, so each company has to verify on their own, which takes quite a lot of time and expense.
  - michaelchisari 10y ago
    I agree, that's a big difference. That said, the dangers of hiring a medical professional who screws up, versus an app/front-end/back-end developer whose code is sub-optimal, means that our industry should hire a lot more easily than it does, and simply let go the employees which underperform. I think the problem actually doesn't start with hiring, it starts with the kind of "workplace-as-family-and-friends" culture that makes firing so taboo.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      Firing is a very important skill for any line manager or business owner. It's not pleasant, and it's complicated in various ways, but not doing it properly, not doing it as soon as appropriate or even not doing it at all is a very expensive failure that hurts everyone involved. You either learn to do it somewhat properly and timely, or you're not qualified for the job yourself.
jaggederest 10y ago
Your comment reminded me of cperciva's thread where he introduced Tarsnap - at one point someone challenged him about his braggadocio - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 Also, it's neat to see Drew Houston comment in that thread, who as far as I know didn't win the Putnam, with ~ a billion net worth, and cperciva still working away in relative obscurity.
- cperciva 10y ago
  "Relative obscurity" is a matter of perspective. Within my fields, I'm far better known than Drew. And that's the key difference here -- we have both been very successful in doing what we want to do. We just want to do different things, that's all.
  - jaggederest 10y ago
    I'm not trying to throw any shade on you, it's just one of the most memorable threads in HN history in my opinion and interesting to look back at. Cheers!
    - cperciva 10y ago
      I doubt I'll ever get an opportunity for such a comeback again. But I do regret that I let my irritation at ivankirigin suggesting that I had a 90% probability of failure carry me away in that thread. I hope I've kept my patience better on HN over the past 8 years.
lushhking1 10y ago
Do You Need Professional Hackers For Hire With Certification?Contact at: CUSTOMCONSULTANT@OUTLOOK.COM. +1-646-439-7925(TEXT FIRST, negotiate a secure call later) Below are some of the services offered amongst others; +Upgrade University Grades +Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Whatsapp, Line, Skype Hack +Delete unwanted online Pictures and Videos on any website +Remove Criminal Records +Hack bank accounts +Password sniffing, Bank Transfers + Company Money-Wire services,+We also develop custom software and web development in php, java +MTP Any domain, Cpanel, Unlimited, Shell, RDP, Leads, Cpanel, Fullz/Dead Fullz with EIN, Pin, W2, SSN and DOB, Fullz for Employment, Mystery Shopper. +Hack MTA4/MTA5 trader platform +Apps hacking +Clearing of criminal records, +SQL DB penetration, Penetration testing, Software testing, Database Penetration.

michaelchisari 10y ago

Most likely they will. Maybe they won't, because part of the process is a certain indoctrination that their employees are more than just talented or clever, but are actually special. And you can convince an employee of a lot of things if you start by convincing them that they're special. Mostly, though, I worry about the ripple effect that's been on the industry. I have friends who are in the medical field, dealing directly with surgeries, childbirth, life-saving (or potentially ending) drugs, and they're taken aback by the kind of interview requirements that so many tech companies have. A Nurse Practitioner can get a job in an ER in a heartbeat, but a front-end developer building React components needs a collective two full days of interviews? Something about that just doesn't make sense to me.

PeterisP 10y ago
A big difference is the amount of formal certification. A diploma from a med school and associated residency is sufficient to expect that the person knows their speciality and is able to treat people from day one. A CS diploma and related working experience is some indication, but (sadly) often doesn't ensure that the candidate is able to code their way out of a wet paper bag and will be able to perform reasonably well (not 10x well but 1x or even 80%) after a month or two of on-site adaptation. Our industry, unlike many others, doesn't have a good (centralized?) way to approve qualifications, so each company has to verify on their own, which takes quite a lot of time and expense.
- michaelchisari 10y ago
  I agree, that's a big difference. That said, the dangers of hiring a medical professional who screws up, versus an app/front-end/back-end developer whose code is sub-optimal, means that our industry should hire a lot more easily than it does, and simply let go the employees which underperform. I think the problem actually doesn't start with hiring, it starts with the kind of "workplace-as-family-and-friends" culture that makes firing so taboo.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    Firing is a very important skill for any line manager or business owner. It's not pleasant, and it's complicated in various ways, but not doing it properly, not doing it as soon as appropriate or even not doing it at all is a very expensive failure that hurts everyone involved. You either learn to do it somewhat properly and timely, or you're not qualified for the job yourself.

jaggederest 10y ago

Your comment reminded me of cperciva's thread where he introduced Tarsnap - at one point someone challenged him about his braggadocio - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 Also, it's neat to see Drew Houston comment in that thread, who as far as I know didn't win the Putnam, with ~ a billion net worth, and cperciva still working away in relative obscurity.

cperciva 10y ago
"Relative obscurity" is a matter of perspective. Within my fields, I'm far better known than Drew. And that's the key difference here -- we have both been very successful in doing what we want to do. We just want to do different things, that's all.
- jaggederest 10y ago
  I'm not trying to throw any shade on you, it's just one of the most memorable threads in HN history in my opinion and interesting to look back at. Cheers!
  - cperciva 10y ago
    I doubt I'll ever get an opportunity for such a comeback again. But I do regret that I let my irritation at ivankirigin suggesting that I had a 90% probability of failure carry me away in that thread. I hope I've kept my patience better on HN over the past 8 years.

lushhking1 10y ago

Do You Need Professional Hackers For Hire With Certification?Contact at: CUSTOMCONSULTANT@OUTLOOK.COM. +1-646-439-7925(TEXT FIRST, negotiate a secure call later) Below are some of the services offered amongst others; +Upgrade University Grades +Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Whatsapp, Line, Skype Hack +Delete unwanted online Pictures and Videos on any website +Remove Criminal Records +Hack bank accounts +Password sniffing, Bank Transfers + Company Money-Wire services,+We also develop custom software and web development in php, java +MTP Any domain, Cpanel, Unlimited, Shell, RDP, Leads, Cpanel, Fullz/Dead Fullz with EIN, Pin, W2, SSN and DOB, Fullz for Employment, Mystery Shopper. +Hack MTA4/MTA5 trader platform +Apps hacking +Clearing of criminal records, +SQL DB penetration, Penetration testing, Software testing, Database Penetration.