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I recently (3 months) started iaidô[1] in my Japanese university club, and one thing that struck me was how few "bullshit" talks we had about the discipline. In

I recently (3 months) started iaidô[1] in my Japanese university club, and one thing that struck me was how few "bullshit" talks we had about the discipline. In contrast, when browsing for clubs in my country, each website was filled with a last a few paragraphs saying how spiritual the art is, how it is all about discovering yourself and the truth of the universe. People of my club are more interested in it because katana are cool than the bushidô spirit or something -- basically nobody ever talked about it. Anyway, when everybody train I cannot help to feel the underlying military spirit of the it, and how in a society like Japan it can quickly turn the way it turned in WWII. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido

cyberferret 10y ago
I just starting Kendo training here at a local dojo. Our instructor is very adamant and clear at almost all training sessions that the skills we are learning with the bamboo and wooden swords are NOT usable in a self defence or martial capacity at all. Rather that our studies are for mental focus, fitness and spiritual calmness. These are the exact reasons I took up the study of this art. In my younger days, I studied Tae Kwon Do for years, but as most other have said here - it has no real practical value in a street fight either, aside from extra fitness, flexibility and general peripheral awareness which may serve as an advantage in a conflict situation.
- titanix2 10y ago
  I wonder how much the unusability is actually related to weapon carry right. I mean, of course sword skill is useless for defence if you cannot carry a sword with you. If it were otherwise, like in pre-Meiji Japan, I'm sure kendô skill would be better than nothing. But given that by the time warriors were taught real military fighting and not martial art in the modern meaning, the question is a non starter. So I agree with you and your teacher. Interestingly enough, from the 6 different clubs (aikidô, karate, iaidô, nippon kenpô, shaolin temple box, sumô) that were demonstrating their art at some event, the most effective or useful one seemed to be... sumô and nippon kenpô. The sumô dudes were very strong and had serious skill for putting done someone on the ground. The boxer kicks were pretty serious too. On the other side, the way people falled on aikidô kata seemed pretty fake, not to mention the karate dudes fighting thin air.
  - martin_a 10y ago
    People always think aikidô is fake, until they try it. I couldn´t believe it for myself until a girl, two heads smaller than me and probably a third of my weight, brought me to the floor. There´s nothing fake in it. There is just pain if you resist, so you don´t. And besides that, the goal of aikidô is to prove the enemy that attacking you will not help him with anything. It´s not meant to overcome him with force, by pain or injuries. It´s very spiritual and different to other dôs. (I did aikidô for five years during university.)
    - qrendel 10y ago
      The techniques aren't fake, they're just unreliable outside of training. It's one thing to pull it off against a training partner who is using a known subset of attacks and when you know they're coming. Different when you're in a chaotic self-defense situation and facing a fully-resisting opponent who will try anything to win. You need a much higher level of skill to deal with the latter than the former. It's the same as how a really good boxer can (against a less skilled opponent) just drop his hands and bob-and-weave to avoid strikes, but an average or unskilled boxer can't afford to try fancy, high-risk techniques, when simpler tactics are a much safer way to win the fight. That's the biggest problem with stuff like aikido for self-defense. Taking an average person and giving them six months or so of aikido training will NOT make them able to effortlessly toss around men 3x their size who are seriously trying to hurt them, and telling them that it will is selling them a dangerous lie. Even if they put in decades of training, they're still relying on relatively high-risk techniques when there are other more reliable ones. I don't mean to crap on anyone's favorite styles. Aikido is an art form with some self-defense applications, and it's great for that. But a lot of people don't understand how hard it is to beat someone who is massively bigger and stronger than you, and it's doing them a dangerous disservice to market it to them as more than that. (~5 years previous experience in tae kwon do, muay thai, BJJ, and hapkido, among others.)
      - peatmoss 10y ago
        This is well put. In judo, for example, most throws are pretty simple in having a readily discernible fulcrum. The setup and execution of the throws are efficient and reliable. In aikido, the point around which someone falls can often be floating unintuitively in space after a combined sequence of off balancings that are neither intuitive nor natural. I study aikido primarily today--not because it is easy, but because it's hard. I'm also utterly unconcerned with self defense. I train for those moments when everything is in alignment and either I or my training partner go vaulting effortlessly through the air. I wouldn't count on that happening in real life. In terms of self defense, people are almost always better off 1. giving an attacker what they want in terms of money or belongings, 2. Running away, 3. Fighting dirty--in that order.
- gvurrdon 10y ago
  Your instructor seems like a sensible fellow. Indeed, there are various focuses to the martial arts and what is taught in a particular school won't meet every requirement. I've found this article very useful for summarising this idea: http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html Unsurprisingly, it puts what I teach (HEMA) almost entirely in category 2, though some parts might be very slightly relevant to some of the other areas from time to time.
- meerita 10y ago
  form kendoka here: I don't want to distrust your instructor, but Kendo IS the way to study all you need to fight. Then there is each school where you can practice special katas and become proficient with one or another technique, but overall.
  - robaato 10y ago
    I study kenjutsu (and aikido) - and have friends/colleagues who are also serious kendo practitioners. Kendo has pluses and minuses - the shinai used can teach habits of "flicking wrists" which just don't work with heavier weapons. And yet advanced practitioners have serious focus and skills. I much admire a female Japanese friend (and sempai) who was told by our sensei to go and study kendo (while not slacking off in her other studies). In her fifties, and a 5th dan, off she went and started from scratch but made rapid progress, and brought back what she had learned. Our sensei told other people to do different things - horses for courses. But what does it mean "to fight"? No rules? For your life? For someone else's life? These are the fundamental questions to be examined and resolved. How would you know if you are ready?
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    There is no doubting that in just my 3 months of study so far that my balance, focus, strength and endurance have improved significantly. All of these factors in themselves will probably make me better prepared to stand up to an attacker in a dark alley than I was before I started the study. However, the finer techniques of grip and striking style - while beneficial for honing and improving all of the above, have little relevance in a street fight situation. But even if my Kendo study gives me the balance and a millisecond better reaction time to be able to pivot out of harms way and dodge a blow, and if it gives me the endurance to run the heck away from a danger scenario, then it is all worthwhile.
Tharkun 10y ago
Like many other things worth doing, iaido is best experienced by doing it. Talking about it will get you nowhere. Get your sword out and start training until you wear yourself out. The people in your club who are there because katanas are cool will all quit within the next 3 years. Some may last 5. None will last 60 unless they get over the coolness factor and see it for what it is. That being said, iaido is great. It's a good physical and mental workout. It'll teach you a lot about yourself, a bit like meditating but with sword in hand. There will be endless repetition in a search for unattainable perfection. It certainly can be 'spiritual' in a sense. Source: over 2 decades of martial arts and nearly 2 decades of iaido.
- titanix2 10y ago
  Japanese university clubs are pretty intense, 3 sessions per week for first grader, up to 5 for the more advanced member. But given how much 1 and 2nd year and how few 3rd year and upper there is, you seems totally right on your point. Actually I was wondering why there was so few of them, but I guess the cultural background also plays a lot; 4th year mostly focus on searching a job and not a lot of student do a master degree. And sure it have the beneficial effects you point (I started it partly to correct my posture), but I think putting too much emphasis on the spiritual side is a kind of Orientalism bias.
  - robaato 10y ago
    It is common for members of a university club to be practicing effectively 2 or more hours per day. Over several years this brings pretty rapid progress. Getting to nidan is fairly common. But after they leave, the majority stop, or do maybe once a week at most. A friend of mine carried on to do a PhD, so was able to continue quite a lot - 20+ years later he is 6th dan!

cyberferret 10y ago

I just starting Kendo training here at a local dojo. Our instructor is very adamant and clear at almost all training sessions that the skills we are learning with the bamboo and wooden swords are NOT usable in a self defence or martial capacity at all. Rather that our studies are for mental focus, fitness and spiritual calmness. These are the exact reasons I took up the study of this art. In my younger days, I studied Tae Kwon Do for years, but as most other have said here - it has no real practical value in a street fight either, aside from extra fitness, flexibility and general peripheral awareness which may serve as an advantage in a conflict situation.

titanix2 10y ago
I wonder how much the unusability is actually related to weapon carry right. I mean, of course sword skill is useless for defence if you cannot carry a sword with you. If it were otherwise, like in pre-Meiji Japan, I'm sure kendô skill would be better than nothing. But given that by the time warriors were taught real military fighting and not martial art in the modern meaning, the question is a non starter. So I agree with you and your teacher. Interestingly enough, from the 6 different clubs (aikidô, karate, iaidô, nippon kenpô, shaolin temple box, sumô) that were demonstrating their art at some event, the most effective or useful one seemed to be... sumô and nippon kenpô. The sumô dudes were very strong and had serious skill for putting done someone on the ground. The boxer kicks were pretty serious too. On the other side, the way people falled on aikidô kata seemed pretty fake, not to mention the karate dudes fighting thin air.
- martin_a 10y ago
  People always think aikidô is fake, until they try it. I couldn´t believe it for myself until a girl, two heads smaller than me and probably a third of my weight, brought me to the floor. There´s nothing fake in it. There is just pain if you resist, so you don´t. And besides that, the goal of aikidô is to prove the enemy that attacking you will not help him with anything. It´s not meant to overcome him with force, by pain or injuries. It´s very spiritual and different to other dôs. (I did aikidô for five years during university.)
  - qrendel 10y ago
    The techniques aren't fake, they're just unreliable outside of training. It's one thing to pull it off against a training partner who is using a known subset of attacks and when you know they're coming. Different when you're in a chaotic self-defense situation and facing a fully-resisting opponent who will try anything to win. You need a much higher level of skill to deal with the latter than the former. It's the same as how a really good boxer can (against a less skilled opponent) just drop his hands and bob-and-weave to avoid strikes, but an average or unskilled boxer can't afford to try fancy, high-risk techniques, when simpler tactics are a much safer way to win the fight. That's the biggest problem with stuff like aikido for self-defense. Taking an average person and giving them six months or so of aikido training will NOT make them able to effortlessly toss around men 3x their size who are seriously trying to hurt them, and telling them that it will is selling them a dangerous lie. Even if they put in decades of training, they're still relying on relatively high-risk techniques when there are other more reliable ones. I don't mean to crap on anyone's favorite styles. Aikido is an art form with some self-defense applications, and it's great for that. But a lot of people don't understand how hard it is to beat someone who is massively bigger and stronger than you, and it's doing them a dangerous disservice to market it to them as more than that. (~5 years previous experience in tae kwon do, muay thai, BJJ, and hapkido, among others.)
    - peatmoss 10y ago
      This is well put. In judo, for example, most throws are pretty simple in having a readily discernible fulcrum. The setup and execution of the throws are efficient and reliable. In aikido, the point around which someone falls can often be floating unintuitively in space after a combined sequence of off balancings that are neither intuitive nor natural. I study aikido primarily today--not because it is easy, but because it's hard. I'm also utterly unconcerned with self defense. I train for those moments when everything is in alignment and either I or my training partner go vaulting effortlessly through the air. I wouldn't count on that happening in real life. In terms of self defense, people are almost always better off 1. giving an attacker what they want in terms of money or belongings, 2. Running away, 3. Fighting dirty--in that order.
gvurrdon 10y ago
Your instructor seems like a sensible fellow. Indeed, there are various focuses to the martial arts and what is taught in a particular school won't meet every requirement. I've found this article very useful for summarising this idea: http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html Unsurprisingly, it puts what I teach (HEMA) almost entirely in category 2, though some parts might be very slightly relevant to some of the other areas from time to time.
meerita 10y ago
form kendoka here: I don't want to distrust your instructor, but Kendo IS the way to study all you need to fight. Then there is each school where you can practice special katas and become proficient with one or another technique, but overall.
- robaato 10y ago
  I study kenjutsu (and aikido) - and have friends/colleagues who are also serious kendo practitioners. Kendo has pluses and minuses - the shinai used can teach habits of "flicking wrists" which just don't work with heavier weapons. And yet advanced practitioners have serious focus and skills. I much admire a female Japanese friend (and sempai) who was told by our sensei to go and study kendo (while not slacking off in her other studies). In her fifties, and a 5th dan, off she went and started from scratch but made rapid progress, and brought back what she had learned. Our sensei told other people to do different things - horses for courses. But what does it mean "to fight"? No rules? For your life? For someone else's life? These are the fundamental questions to be examined and resolved. How would you know if you are ready?
- cyberferret 10y ago
  There is no doubting that in just my 3 months of study so far that my balance, focus, strength and endurance have improved significantly. All of these factors in themselves will probably make me better prepared to stand up to an attacker in a dark alley than I was before I started the study. However, the finer techniques of grip and striking style - while beneficial for honing and improving all of the above, have little relevance in a street fight situation. But even if my Kendo study gives me the balance and a millisecond better reaction time to be able to pivot out of harms way and dodge a blow, and if it gives me the endurance to run the heck away from a danger scenario, then it is all worthwhile.

Tharkun 10y ago

Like many other things worth doing, iaido is best experienced by doing it. Talking about it will get you nowhere. Get your sword out and start training until you wear yourself out. The people in your club who are there because katanas are cool will all quit within the next 3 years. Some may last 5. None will last 60 unless they get over the coolness factor and see it for what it is. That being said, iaido is great. It's a good physical and mental workout. It'll teach you a lot about yourself, a bit like meditating but with sword in hand. There will be endless repetition in a search for unattainable perfection. It certainly can be 'spiritual' in a sense. Source: over 2 decades of martial arts and nearly 2 decades of iaido.

titanix2 10y ago
Japanese university clubs are pretty intense, 3 sessions per week for first grader, up to 5 for the more advanced member. But given how much 1 and 2nd year and how few 3rd year and upper there is, you seems totally right on your point. Actually I was wondering why there was so few of them, but I guess the cultural background also plays a lot; 4th year mostly focus on searching a job and not a lot of student do a master degree. And sure it have the beneficial effects you point (I started it partly to correct my posture), but I think putting too much emphasis on the spiritual side is a kind of Orientalism bias.
- robaato 10y ago
  It is common for members of a university club to be practicing effectively 2 or more hours per day. Over several years this brings pretty rapid progress. Getting to nidan is fairly common. But after they leave, the majority stop, or do maybe once a week at most. A friend of mine carried on to do a PhD, so was able to continue quite a lot - 20+ years later he is 6th dan!