6 ms·

You may wish to search for "Dieselgate" on the web, to better familiarize yourself with this case. The German government is actually investigating the ex-VW Ge

You may wish to search for "Dieselgate" on the web, to better familiarize yourself with this case. The German government is actually investigating the ex-VW Germany CEO, although I don't know if that means potential jail time. Further, there have been serious consequences at VW. Top management has effectively changed in both Germany and the US. The future product roadmap has changed radically in both the US and Europe. Also, this direct monetary outlay is not exactly a slap on the wrist, even for one of the world's largest automakers.

a3camero 10y ago
Losing your job << going to jail for your actions. From the Wikipedia article: "... estimated that approximately 59 premature deaths will be caused by the excess pollution produced between 2008 and 2015 by vehicles equipped with the defeat device in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#D... Installing the defeat devices in hundreds of thousands of vehicles was not an accident that happened one day. It was a calculated corporate decision involving many people, over a long period of time. The result, according to many sources, was dozens to hundreds of deaths in the United States, Europe and elsewhere.
- cced 10y ago
  How are deaths related tk falsified fuel emissions calculated? Edit: a word
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    You can build a model perhaps if toxicity of emissions, how it spreads, absorbs, affects human body are known.
  - Unklejoe 10y ago
    There's no way they can reliably calculate that. Any increase in deaths could just as easily be attributed to the increase in popularity of country music and therefore diesel truck sales. All we can reliably say is that the environment is worse off. Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly?
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      >Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly? What if you were one of those people? Or someone you loved?
      - ccallebs 10y ago
        I don't think he's calling the deaths insignificant. He's only saying it's statistically insignificant given N.
    - ams6110 10y ago
      I sit in stunned amazement at the foaming-at-the-mouth outrage being expressed on this thread. There is no way you can pin the death of anybody on VW diesel emissions. It's a statistics game that that's it. You might as well blame Tesla for the extra deaths caused by the increase coal plant emissions created by owners charging their cars. Or make up any other example of any activity that increases some polutant. The only difference is that VW violated an arbitrary number in a government regulation. There are millions of vehicles on the road today with worse emissions than the violating VW diesels. They are all killing people (statistically) and the government and therefore you and I are complicit in this murder by allowing it to continue. I am sure everone on this thread will endorse punitive tax increases to punish us all for our negligence, and to buy out the owners of these polluting cars so that they can all buy clean-and-green new ones (conveniently ignoring the rather massive environmental impact and attendant premature deaths caused by junking and replacing perfectly serviceable vehicles).
      - dontreact 10y ago
        Actually yes, a carbon tax that priced in externalities such as excess deaths would be a great idea and many people in this thread would support it.
      - Unklejoe 10y ago
        Exactly. It's understandable to be angry about this, but I think many people overestimate the magnitude of the issue here (or perhaps have misplaced their anger). Consider the fact that in some states, heavy duty diesel trucks (8,500 lbs or more) and trucks older than 1997 are completely exempt from all emissions testing. I bet a single one of those trucks produces more emissions than the "actual vs claimed" emissions delta of dozens of VWs combined.
  - a3camero 10y ago
    The method for the paper that is quoted in the Wikipedia article can be found starting on page 2 (the full text is available for free): http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/11/114005/pdf http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/11/11.... It's three and a half pages long and includes many citations to other published articles.
ACow_Adonis 10y ago
When you say "serious consequences", do you have any idea whether the people responsible have moved on to other similar jobs or are still working in the industry or living a similar lifestyle? Because if they are, then I think we may have to disagree on what constitutes a "serious consequence", as per the original posters point. And if we don't know that, then we're not really in a position to know if there have been sufficiently serious consequences for those involved. Hell, I'll pay the 15 billion dollar fine if I can do it with Volkswagen money and you don't touch my assets, the money I took out of the company as salary while doing the crime, or jail me. Serious consequences laid on a corporation don't do anything, because there's no conscious being there to react to, perceive, or experience those negative consequences. They especially don't do anything if you're managing other people's money and the executive class receives relatively little personal punishment.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  Really it's punishing the innocent shareholders more than anything. Executive compensation is unlikely to fall at Volkswagen.
  - damienkatz 10y ago
    Shareholders are not innocent. It's their responsibility to bear, albeit limited, financial risk. It's therefore prudent for them to demand companies uphold legal and moral obligations, or move capital into ventures that will. Failure to do so means they are more likely to lose their investments.
    - Unklejoe 10y ago
      I'm sure many shareholders had no idea this was happening. It's not like VW had a shareholder vote to decide whether to cheat on emissions or not.
      - damienkatz 10y ago
        Then they should have invested in companies that have stricter controls, or put their money somewhere safer w/ more transparency. That some investors are unsophisticated doesn't absolve them of liability.
coldtea 10y ago
>Further, there have been serious consequences at VW. Top management has effectively changed in both Germany and the US. Yeah, they flew out with the golden parachutes and bonuses and new people replaced them. Some punishment.

a3camero 10y ago

Losing your job << going to jail for your actions. From the Wikipedia article: "... estimated that approximately 59 premature deaths will be caused by the excess pollution produced between 2008 and 2015 by vehicles equipped with the defeat device in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#D... Installing the defeat devices in hundreds of thousands of vehicles was not an accident that happened one day. It was a calculated corporate decision involving many people, over a long period of time. The result, according to many sources, was dozens to hundreds of deaths in the United States, Europe and elsewhere.

cced 10y ago
How are deaths related tk falsified fuel emissions calculated? Edit: a word
- rdtsc 10y ago
  You can build a model perhaps if toxicity of emissions, how it spreads, absorbs, affects human body are known.
- Unklejoe 10y ago
  There's no way they can reliably calculate that. Any increase in deaths could just as easily be attributed to the increase in popularity of country music and therefore diesel truck sales. All we can reliably say is that the environment is worse off. Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly?
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    >Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly? What if you were one of those people? Or someone you loved?
    - ccallebs 10y ago
      I don't think he's calling the deaths insignificant. He's only saying it's statistically insignificant given N.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    I sit in stunned amazement at the foaming-at-the-mouth outrage being expressed on this thread. There is no way you can pin the death of anybody on VW diesel emissions. It's a statistics game that that's it. You might as well blame Tesla for the extra deaths caused by the increase coal plant emissions created by owners charging their cars. Or make up any other example of any activity that increases some polutant. The only difference is that VW violated an arbitrary number in a government regulation. There are millions of vehicles on the road today with worse emissions than the violating VW diesels. They are all killing people (statistically) and the government and therefore you and I are complicit in this murder by allowing it to continue. I am sure everone on this thread will endorse punitive tax increases to punish us all for our negligence, and to buy out the owners of these polluting cars so that they can all buy clean-and-green new ones (conveniently ignoring the rather massive environmental impact and attendant premature deaths caused by junking and replacing perfectly serviceable vehicles).
    - dontreact 10y ago
      Actually yes, a carbon tax that priced in externalities such as excess deaths would be a great idea and many people in this thread would support it.
    - Unklejoe 10y ago
      Exactly. It's understandable to be angry about this, but I think many people overestimate the magnitude of the issue here (or perhaps have misplaced their anger). Consider the fact that in some states, heavy duty diesel trucks (8,500 lbs or more) and trucks older than 1997 are completely exempt from all emissions testing. I bet a single one of those trucks produces more emissions than the "actual vs claimed" emissions delta of dozens of VWs combined.
- a3camero 10y ago
  The method for the paper that is quoted in the Wikipedia article can be found starting on page 2 (the full text is available for free): http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/11/114005/pdf http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/11/11.... It's three and a half pages long and includes many citations to other published articles.

ACow_Adonis 10y ago

When you say "serious consequences", do you have any idea whether the people responsible have moved on to other similar jobs or are still working in the industry or living a similar lifestyle? Because if they are, then I think we may have to disagree on what constitutes a "serious consequence", as per the original posters point. And if we don't know that, then we're not really in a position to know if there have been sufficiently serious consequences for those involved. Hell, I'll pay the 15 billion dollar fine if I can do it with Volkswagen money and you don't touch my assets, the money I took out of the company as salary while doing the crime, or jail me. Serious consequences laid on a corporation don't do anything, because there's no conscious being there to react to, perceive, or experience those negative consequences. They especially don't do anything if you're managing other people's money and the executive class receives relatively little personal punishment.

cmdrfred 10y ago
Really it's punishing the innocent shareholders more than anything. Executive compensation is unlikely to fall at Volkswagen.
- damienkatz 10y ago
  Shareholders are not innocent. It's their responsibility to bear, albeit limited, financial risk. It's therefore prudent for them to demand companies uphold legal and moral obligations, or move capital into ventures that will. Failure to do so means they are more likely to lose their investments.
  - Unklejoe 10y ago
    I'm sure many shareholders had no idea this was happening. It's not like VW had a shareholder vote to decide whether to cheat on emissions or not.
    - damienkatz 10y ago
      Then they should have invested in companies that have stricter controls, or put their money somewhere safer w/ more transparency. That some investors are unsophisticated doesn't absolve them of liability.

coldtea 10y ago

>Further, there have been serious consequences at VW. Top management has effectively changed in both Germany and the US. Yeah, they flew out with the golden parachutes and bonuses and new people replaced them. Some punishment.