6 ms·

Where's the jailtime? As an individual, you make one wrong statement to the FBI, and you are hauled off to jail. The company lied over 500,000 times to the gov

Where's the jailtime? As an individual, you make one wrong statement to the FBI, and you are hauled off to jail. The company lied over 500,000 times to the government, and gets off by paying a paltry fine. No wonder companies continue to do this: there is no consequence to the employees who do this shit.

spriggan3 10y ago
> The settlement does not address lawsuits from investors or a criminal investigation by the Justice Department. It's seems that a criminal investigation may be ongoing.
- DKnoll3 10y ago
  If that's the only indication you're using for this, I think you'll be very disappointed.
- duaneb 10y ago
  is that a preventative measure for a corporation so large (or ones in the future)?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
x5n1 10y ago
I would like to see a US company pay 15B for not following the rules. If it were a US company, the fine with be in the millions. Biggest fines against US companies. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-of-the-biggest-corporate-penalties-ever-2013-09-27?page=1 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-of-the-biggest-corporate-... So yeah this would be in the top 3 or 4 of the biggest ever fines paid by US companies.
- GabrielF00 10y ago
  Bank of America paid $16.65 billion.[https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bank-america-pay-1665-billion-historic-justice-department-settlement-financial-fraud-leading https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bank-america-pay-1665-billion...] The tobacco industry is paying over $200 billion (although that's split between a number of companies). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre...]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- wallace_f 10y ago
  I don't agree with the fact you are being downvoted. Toyota and Honda have paid the largest safety-related fines in history: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-toyota-billion-dollar-justice-department-settlement-20140319-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-toyota-billion-doll... http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/honda-will-pay-largest-auto-safety-fine-in-us-history-for-lapses.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/honda-will-pay-largest-auto-... Compare Toyota's fine for it's failure to report safety defects to GM's in the GM ignition scandal. I think reasonable minds can conclude that they are both serious, but it is possible to make an argument GM's was more serious, and they paid a lesser fine. Also compare timelines, and the fact that US regulators were pressured by public discourse in the GM case. It's not crazy to come to the conclusion regulators show bias towards US automakers. It's actually no conspiracy at all that the US government has bias and favors US auto makers in public policy. Afterall, it was not long ago we gave GM a huge welfare check / bail out package. Ford to a lesser extent.
  - Aoyagi 10y ago
    Sudden acceleration is less serious than "if you put a lot of heavy stuff on your car keys, it may turn the key when it's in the ignition box"?
    - wallace_f 10y ago
      OK, let's play ball: Here's the arguments I can make in 5 minutes of Google searching. My point is just that there's room for debate here (in other words, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, what I am saying is that reasonable people can agree there is reasonable debate on this issue). Argument 1: Toyota paid 1.2 billion dollars for failure to disclose safety defects linked to 5 deaths. Floor mats in Toyota cars may be linked to up to 34 more deaths. GM had to pay only 900 million for safety defects leading to at minimum 124 deaths, but the real death toll may be much, much higher than that, because as many as 90% of claims are not included in that figure as they are part of an ongoing civil dispute. Sources: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls#Cause_of_ignition_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... 2. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/03/19/toyota-in-us-settlement-over-unintended-acceleration-source.html http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/03/19/toyota-in-us-...) Argument 2 (an argument similar to yours that oversimplifies): Complete loss of control of your car (not even airbags functioning) is less serious than having floor mats in your car? Argument 3: Toyota paid 1.2 billion dollars for "having floor mats in their cars" and an extremely rare accelerator sticking issue that was linked to only 5 deaths. GM got off easy on an issue that caused complete loss of control of the car as ignition cut off, and not even the airbags would be deployed in this scenario. GM also internally was aware and discussed this defect for about a decade and did not disclose it. Argument 4: Most of the deaths in Toyota's case were linked to floor mats, but how much blame can we reasonable put on floor mats for causing accidents? Is it more or less than putting items on your key chain? Maybe it's not reasonable to assume items on your keychain a safety risk, but manipulating and kicking the floor mats out of their socket holders obviously could interfere with the accelerator pedal. Edit: I think no matter how you spin it, GM paid probably an order of magnitude less $$/human life than Toyota in these two cases.
setpatchaddress 10y ago
You may wish to search for "Dieselgate" on the web, to better familiarize yourself with this case. The German government is actually investigating the ex-VW Germany CEO, although I don't know if that means potential jail time. Further, there have been serious consequences at VW. Top management has effectively changed in both Germany and the US. The future product roadmap has changed radically in both the US and Europe. Also, this direct monetary outlay is not exactly a slap on the wrist, even for one of the world's largest automakers.
- a3camero 10y ago
  Losing your job << going to jail for your actions. From the Wikipedia article: "... estimated that approximately 59 premature deaths will be caused by the excess pollution produced between 2008 and 2015 by vehicles equipped with the defeat device in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#D... Installing the defeat devices in hundreds of thousands of vehicles was not an accident that happened one day. It was a calculated corporate decision involving many people, over a long period of time. The result, according to many sources, was dozens to hundreds of deaths in the United States, Europe and elsewhere.
  - cced 10y ago
    How are deaths related tk falsified fuel emissions calculated? Edit: a word
    - rdtsc 10y ago
      You can build a model perhaps if toxicity of emissions, how it spreads, absorbs, affects human body are known.
    - Unklejoe 10y ago
      There's no way they can reliably calculate that. Any increase in deaths could just as easily be attributed to the increase in popularity of country music and therefore diesel truck sales. All we can reliably say is that the environment is worse off. Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly?
sandworm101 10y ago
Like other commentators, I would suggest that the criminal investigations are ongoing, but I also suggest that VW management is getting off very easy. They are not currently under arrest. Individuals by this point, with this sort of evidence, would have been arrested and bailed. There is more than probably cause to start arresting dozens of VW employees. They can then fight amongst themselves as to who is going to turn state's evidence.
- eisito 10y ago
  Arresting based on what? There are unfortunately no hard evidences against upper management at the moment.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    They should treat it as they would any other conspiracy. You focus on an individual, arrest them, then get them to give evidence. Eventually you work your way up the chain. Waiting until you've got all the ducks in a row is special treatment in comparison to standard criminal investigations.
jonknee 10y ago
TBA: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/international/volkswagen-winterkorn-germany.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/international/vol... > German prosecutors said on Monday that the former Volkswagen chief, Martin Winterkorn, is suspected of market manipulation for having waited too long to disclose that the company faced an inquiry. They are looking into another member of the management board as well for potential violations of securities laws.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
We don't like to talk about it, but if you want to commit crimes, the best way to do it is to collective responsibility over a corporate entity, and hold your employees and economic sector hostage. It worked for the banks and car manufacturers...
- stephengillie 10y ago
  The best way to commit illegal actions is to gain power, and then make those actions legal. Power, in this sense, can range from monarchy[0] to democracy[1][2] to political respect[3][4]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_to_th... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_t... [3]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage [4]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
unexistance 10y ago
it's actually simple logic, money comes first. If the guilty rich enough, get money else, jail time If there are public anger, then give minimal/luxurious jail time continue to next public issue
- m_mueller 10y ago
  Now patent this algorithm and go sue the government in East Texas.
ekianjo 10y ago
There are no consequences for most politicians' actions either. What do we do about it ?
monasimpson 10y ago
>As an individual, you make one wrong statement to the FBI, and you are hauled off to jail Hillary Clinton approves.
BurningFrog 10y ago
I like equality before the law, but why do people always want to raise punishments to the maximum level? Why not lower instead? Abolish the fairly newly invented crime of lying to police while not under oath instead? Then again, when we're all imprisoned for life, we will undeniably have achieved some kind of equality...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
BuckRogers 10y ago
Yup, need to ban corporations and make CEOs and executives directly responsible for all company decisions and their consequences in court. Sure it would slow down business significantly. But it would stop this irreversible harm to our planet, the place of which we require to stay alive..

spriggan3 10y ago

> The settlement does not address lawsuits from investors or a criminal investigation by the Justice Department. It's seems that a criminal investigation may be ongoing.

DKnoll3 10y ago
If that's the only indication you're using for this, I think you'll be very disappointed.
duaneb 10y ago
is that a preventative measure for a corporation so large (or ones in the future)?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

x5n1 10y ago

I would like to see a US company pay 15B for not following the rules. If it were a US company, the fine with be in the millions. Biggest fines against US companies. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-of-the-biggest-corporate-penalties-ever-2013-09-27?page=1 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-of-the-biggest-corporate-... So yeah this would be in the top 3 or 4 of the biggest ever fines paid by US companies.

GabrielF00 10y ago
Bank of America paid $16.65 billion.[https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bank-america-pay-1665-billion-historic-justice-department-settlement-financial-fraud-leading https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/bank-america-pay-1665-billion...] The tobacco industry is paying over $200 billion (although that's split between a number of companies). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre...]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wallace_f 10y ago
I don't agree with the fact you are being downvoted. Toyota and Honda have paid the largest safety-related fines in history: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-toyota-billion-dollar-justice-department-settlement-20140319-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-toyota-billion-doll... http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/honda-will-pay-largest-auto-safety-fine-in-us-history-for-lapses.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/honda-will-pay-largest-auto-... Compare Toyota's fine for it's failure to report safety defects to GM's in the GM ignition scandal. I think reasonable minds can conclude that they are both serious, but it is possible to make an argument GM's was more serious, and they paid a lesser fine. Also compare timelines, and the fact that US regulators were pressured by public discourse in the GM case. It's not crazy to come to the conclusion regulators show bias towards US automakers. It's actually no conspiracy at all that the US government has bias and favors US auto makers in public policy. Afterall, it was not long ago we gave GM a huge welfare check / bail out package. Ford to a lesser extent.
- Aoyagi 10y ago
  Sudden acceleration is less serious than "if you put a lot of heavy stuff on your car keys, it may turn the key when it's in the ignition box"?
  - wallace_f 10y ago
    OK, let's play ball: Here's the arguments I can make in 5 minutes of Google searching. My point is just that there's room for debate here (in other words, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, what I am saying is that reasonable people can agree there is reasonable debate on this issue). Argument 1: Toyota paid 1.2 billion dollars for failure to disclose safety defects linked to 5 deaths. Floor mats in Toyota cars may be linked to up to 34 more deaths. GM had to pay only 900 million for safety defects leading to at minimum 124 deaths, but the real death toll may be much, much higher than that, because as many as 90% of claims are not included in that figure as they are part of an ongoing civil dispute. Sources: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls#Cause_of_ignition_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... 2. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/03/19/toyota-in-us-settlement-over-unintended-acceleration-source.html http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/03/19/toyota-in-us-...) Argument 2 (an argument similar to yours that oversimplifies): Complete loss of control of your car (not even airbags functioning) is less serious than having floor mats in your car? Argument 3: Toyota paid 1.2 billion dollars for "having floor mats in their cars" and an extremely rare accelerator sticking issue that was linked to only 5 deaths. GM got off easy on an issue that caused complete loss of control of the car as ignition cut off, and not even the airbags would be deployed in this scenario. GM also internally was aware and discussed this defect for about a decade and did not disclose it. Argument 4: Most of the deaths in Toyota's case were linked to floor mats, but how much blame can we reasonable put on floor mats for causing accidents? Is it more or less than putting items on your key chain? Maybe it's not reasonable to assume items on your keychain a safety risk, but manipulating and kicking the floor mats out of their socket holders obviously could interfere with the accelerator pedal. Edit: I think no matter how you spin it, GM paid probably an order of magnitude less $$/human life than Toyota in these two cases.

setpatchaddress 10y ago

You may wish to search for "Dieselgate" on the web, to better familiarize yourself with this case. The German government is actually investigating the ex-VW Germany CEO, although I don't know if that means potential jail time. Further, there have been serious consequences at VW. Top management has effectively changed in both Germany and the US. The future product roadmap has changed radically in both the US and Europe. Also, this direct monetary outlay is not exactly a slap on the wrist, even for one of the world's largest automakers.

a3camero 10y ago
Losing your job << going to jail for your actions. From the Wikipedia article: "... estimated that approximately 59 premature deaths will be caused by the excess pollution produced between 2008 and 2015 by vehicles equipped with the defeat device in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#D... Installing the defeat devices in hundreds of thousands of vehicles was not an accident that happened one day. It was a calculated corporate decision involving many people, over a long period of time. The result, according to many sources, was dozens to hundreds of deaths in the United States, Europe and elsewhere.
- cced 10y ago
  How are deaths related tk falsified fuel emissions calculated? Edit: a word
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    You can build a model perhaps if toxicity of emissions, how it spreads, absorbs, affects human body are known.
  - Unklejoe 10y ago
    There's no way they can reliably calculate that. Any increase in deaths could just as easily be attributed to the increase in popularity of country music and therefore diesel truck sales. All we can reliably say is that the environment is worse off. Also, 59 seems like a statistically insignificant number when compared to the overall population. Or maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly?

sandworm101 10y ago

Like other commentators, I would suggest that the criminal investigations are ongoing, but I also suggest that VW management is getting off very easy. They are not currently under arrest. Individuals by this point, with this sort of evidence, would have been arrested and bailed. There is more than probably cause to start arresting dozens of VW employees. They can then fight amongst themselves as to who is going to turn state's evidence.

eisito 10y ago
Arresting based on what? There are unfortunately no hard evidences against upper management at the moment.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  They should treat it as they would any other conspiracy. You focus on an individual, arrest them, then get them to give evidence. Eventually you work your way up the chain. Waiting until you've got all the ducks in a row is special treatment in comparison to standard criminal investigations.

jonknee 10y ago

TBA: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/international/volkswagen-winterkorn-germany.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/international/vol... > German prosecutors said on Monday that the former Volkswagen chief, Martin Winterkorn, is suspected of market manipulation for having waited too long to disclose that the company faced an inquiry. They are looking into another member of the management board as well for potential violations of securities laws.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

We don't like to talk about it, but if you want to commit crimes, the best way to do it is to collective responsibility over a corporate entity, and hold your employees and economic sector hostage. It worked for the banks and car manufacturers...

stephengillie 10y ago
The best way to commit illegal actions is to gain power, and then make those actions legal. Power, in this sense, can range from monarchy[0] to democracy[1][2] to political respect[3][4]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_to_th... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_t... [3]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage [4]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

unexistance 10y ago

it's actually simple logic, money comes first. If the guilty rich enough, get money else, jail time If there are public anger, then give minimal/luxurious jail time continue to next public issue

m_mueller 10y ago
Now patent this algorithm and go sue the government in East Texas.

ekianjo 10y ago

There are no consequences for most politicians' actions either. What do we do about it ?

monasimpson 10y ago

>As an individual, you make one wrong statement to the FBI, and you are hauled off to jail Hillary Clinton approves.

BurningFrog 10y ago

I like equality before the law, but why do people always want to raise punishments to the maximum level? Why not lower instead? Abolish the fairly newly invented crime of lying to police while not under oath instead? Then again, when we're all imprisoned for life, we will undeniably have achieved some kind of equality...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

BuckRogers 10y ago

Yup, need to ban corporations and make CEOs and executives directly responsible for all company decisions and their consequences in court. Sure it would slow down business significantly. But it would stop this irreversible harm to our planet, the place of which we require to stay alive..