4 ms·

Flexibility? I don't own a car, and haven't for the last decade (and only had a car for maybe a year of my life). This year, I've been driven in a car about fou

Flexibility? I don't own a car, and haven't for the last decade (and only had a car for maybe a year of my life). This year, I've been driven in a car about four times in > 170 days. So let me talk about flexibility. Think about how much a car costs to buy and own (purchasing, upkeep, insurance, gas, parking, storage) - then put a price on that in hours you work a year. I bet it's a lot! Maybe weeks out of every year. Now, think of not having to work those days, because you don't have car, and those expenses do not apply to you. What would you do with all this time you know have? So many things! I can't even imagine what to do first! Cars enable convenience, not flexibility. But it comes at a huge price: a financial price, an environmental price, and a huge price on the standard of living in the negative direction - not just for people living in fancy cities: the oil field worker, the car factory worker, the people living in third world countries mining some of those conflict materials you all need. There's no free lunch. You can argue about a single car, and how much convenient it is for the individual, but we're talking about something we've produced in the hundreds of millions. There's huge effects of this invention. You know what happens to cars and cities? People live far away from their jobs. Then they talk about their hellish commute. And how much gas costs. And how their neighborhood is boring. And how there's not parking. And how the car needs to go into the shop. And on and on and on. These may all be transparent to you, but without a car, I hear it all the time, and I'm happy - so very happy to be off that spinning wheel. Having lived in Europe a little while (had to do something with all that free time!), intelligent, forward-thinking people, living in cities without cars, because these cities were designed before cars. Other options are created, like public transportation system (and bike sharing schemes) that don't have whatever stigma they have in the states. I don't know for this topic if I'm willing to trade "flexibility" for a massive amount of complexity.

Kalium 10y ago
Friend, I live a life not so different from yours. I'm suggesting that other people choose to have cars now - and historically as well - because they find that the advantages for them outweigh the disadvantages for them. You may want to consider that other people may make their choices for reasons they personally find compelling in the context of their individual lives.
- davidw 10y ago
  I think very few people are saying "no cars, ever!". We have one and find it very useful, like you say. What many people are realizing is that cars should not be the be-all and end-all of urban design in the US.
  - rando18423 10y ago
    Hong Kong is fucking awesome to get around. Why not moving sidewalks like they have there with the Midlevels Escalators? I used that to walk from Midlevels to Central every day and loved it.
    - Turing_Machine 10y ago
      Hong Kong has a population density of 6,544 people/km^2. The United States has a population density of 35 people/km2.
      - akovaski 10y ago
        NYC has a population density of 10,831 people/km^2. San Francisco has a population density of 7,124 people/km^2. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I don't think anybody really wants to plan the rural areas of the US in the image of Hong Kong.
com2kid 10y ago
> Think about how much a car costs to buy and own (purchasing, upkeep, insurance, gas, parking, storage) - then put a price on that in hours you work a year. I bet it's a lot! Maybe weeks out of every year. Now, think of not having to work those days, because you don't have car, and those expenses do not apply to you. I own a reliable econo-box that I bought years ago. Maintenance is almost nil, parking is less time than it'd take me to use public transit (which is relatively bad where I live), and underground parking comes with my condo. I am a huge advocate of public transit, but I'll say that cars are pretty nice.
- megablast 10y ago
  Sure, but you are only looking at your costs. What about the costs to society, the pollution you cause, the dangerous environment you are part off.
  - paulryanrogers 10y ago
    This. Sadly even all electric cars have significant externalities.
Spooky23 10y ago
I live a 10 minute drive, 45 minute walk, 75 minute bus from work. 30-60 minutes of my life = 125-250 hours a year.
- cozzyd 10y ago
  If it's a 45 minute walk it's likely a 10 minute bike ride.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Knees can't do it.
hueving 10y ago
You sound like you are justifying your own choices with a strawman argument about what it's like to own a car. My annual maintenance costs + insurance + licensing on my 15 year old car are about the same cost as renting a car for two days. I think you vastly overestimate the cost of owning an older car. Im also not sure you understand the term flexibility in the way most people do. Right now (as in within 10 minutes), I can be on my way up to Lake Tahoe or off to Yosemite. There is no other form of transportation that can work that quickly. Even with an amazing rail and bus network, you are beholden to the schedule and the overhead of local transit to the long distance station. With public transportation your life is dictated by the schedule of the transit, with a car you just leave whenever you feel like it.
- julespitt 10y ago
  Your point about taking your car and heading to Tahoe and Yosemite, strictly speaking, is correct. However, speaking only for myself, I do not find it particularly urgent to make long-distance trips - presumably for leisure - within ten minutes of making the decision. The bigger question is - why is it strictly necessarily to have to use it for ten minutes - just to get milk? And while most places in the US simply do not have it, the solution to public transportation scheduling is that they run so frequently no one bothers to check the schedule. This is, admittedly, a chicken-or-the-egg problem in most US cities, although some are starting to get it.
  - hueving 10y ago
    >they run so frequently no one bothers to check the schedule Great if you live on a route popular enough that they do that. You are screwed otherwise. Even if you do live on a popular route, it also doesn't solve the problem if you want to go somewhere unpopular. >I do not find it particularly urgent to make long-distance trips - presumably for leisure - within ten minutes of making the decision. Good for you, but not that relevant for people that do. Waking up Saturday morning and deciding to drive out to a destination like this, spend the night, and then drive back the next day is not considered unreasonable. >The bigger question is - why is it strictly necessarily to have to use it for ten minutes - just to get milk? Because I need milk for a recipe I just found online and I don't want to wait 15 minutes for the next train, ride for 10 minutes, shop for 5 minutes, wait 15 minutes for the return train, and then ride for 10 minutes. And those times even generously assume I live right on a stop and there is a store right on a stop.
stephengillie 10y ago
Having grown up in rural US, where owning a car is a necessity of life - 15 miles to the nearest store on 45mph roads with no sidewalks - and now living within Seattle, it's not quite so bad. Taking 1 bus to another city costs as much as gas to drive there and back, so commuting feels more expensive on top of feeling less convenient. If you don't live inside a major city, or if you live in a car-friendly area, parking and storing your vehicle is very cheap - often free. Parking and insurance combined may be less than $200/month. When you have a family, or a business group, traveling by car has the added advantage that the rest of the group is unable to become separated from you along the way. Sorry to sound tautological or pedantic, but it's an often-overlooked point. It's almost like putting your family into a ZIP file - on arrival, everyone will still be in the car, nobody will get lost on the way or take the wrong turn. Like young classmates holding a rope on school outings.
vitro 10y ago
While that may be true if you speak for yourself like a single person. But what if you are a couple, or a family? For a long time I did not want a car but when children came, we have bought it and it help our mobility a lot, if you have full car, it is also cheaper travel than paying tickets for everybody. For a travel inside a city I still use public transport wherever I can as it is the fastest and most green way to get around.
ngrilly 10y ago
I lived in a small city on the French Atltantic coast, where I can walk and bike in the city, but I have to drive to go anywhere outside of the city. Having a car is not really an option here; it's mandatory. I also lived in Paris, where I used public transports exclusively. I hadn't a car. Honestly, in both cases, there is no free lunch. In Paris, most people don't have a car, but yet they still live far away from their jobs and have hellish commute. I agree that cars bring a lot of complexity, but stuffing all people in the same area also bring its share of complexity.

Kalium 10y ago

Friend, I live a life not so different from yours. I'm suggesting that other people choose to have cars now - and historically as well - because they find that the advantages for them outweigh the disadvantages for them. You may want to consider that other people may make their choices for reasons they personally find compelling in the context of their individual lives.

davidw 10y ago
I think very few people are saying "no cars, ever!". We have one and find it very useful, like you say. What many people are realizing is that cars should not be the be-all and end-all of urban design in the US.
- rando18423 10y ago
  Hong Kong is fucking awesome to get around. Why not moving sidewalks like they have there with the Midlevels Escalators? I used that to walk from Midlevels to Central every day and loved it.
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    Hong Kong has a population density of 6,544 people/km^2. The United States has a population density of 35 people/km2.
    - akovaski 10y ago
      NYC has a population density of 10,831 people/km^2. San Francisco has a population density of 7,124 people/km^2. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I don't think anybody really wants to plan the rural areas of the US in the image of Hong Kong.

com2kid 10y ago

> Think about how much a car costs to buy and own (purchasing, upkeep, insurance, gas, parking, storage) - then put a price on that in hours you work a year. I bet it's a lot! Maybe weeks out of every year. Now, think of not having to work those days, because you don't have car, and those expenses do not apply to you. I own a reliable econo-box that I bought years ago. Maintenance is almost nil, parking is less time than it'd take me to use public transit (which is relatively bad where I live), and underground parking comes with my condo. I am a huge advocate of public transit, but I'll say that cars are pretty nice.

megablast 10y ago
Sure, but you are only looking at your costs. What about the costs to society, the pollution you cause, the dangerous environment you are part off.
- paulryanrogers 10y ago
  This. Sadly even all electric cars have significant externalities.

Spooky23 10y ago

I live a 10 minute drive, 45 minute walk, 75 minute bus from work. 30-60 minutes of my life = 125-250 hours a year.

cozzyd 10y ago
If it's a 45 minute walk it's likely a 10 minute bike ride.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Knees can't do it.

hueving 10y ago

You sound like you are justifying your own choices with a strawman argument about what it's like to own a car. My annual maintenance costs + insurance + licensing on my 15 year old car are about the same cost as renting a car for two days. I think you vastly overestimate the cost of owning an older car. Im also not sure you understand the term flexibility in the way most people do. Right now (as in within 10 minutes), I can be on my way up to Lake Tahoe or off to Yosemite. There is no other form of transportation that can work that quickly. Even with an amazing rail and bus network, you are beholden to the schedule and the overhead of local transit to the long distance station. With public transportation your life is dictated by the schedule of the transit, with a car you just leave whenever you feel like it.

julespitt 10y ago
Your point about taking your car and heading to Tahoe and Yosemite, strictly speaking, is correct. However, speaking only for myself, I do not find it particularly urgent to make long-distance trips - presumably for leisure - within ten minutes of making the decision. The bigger question is - why is it strictly necessarily to have to use it for ten minutes - just to get milk? And while most places in the US simply do not have it, the solution to public transportation scheduling is that they run so frequently no one bothers to check the schedule. This is, admittedly, a chicken-or-the-egg problem in most US cities, although some are starting to get it.
- hueving 10y ago
  >they run so frequently no one bothers to check the schedule Great if you live on a route popular enough that they do that. You are screwed otherwise. Even if you do live on a popular route, it also doesn't solve the problem if you want to go somewhere unpopular. >I do not find it particularly urgent to make long-distance trips - presumably for leisure - within ten minutes of making the decision. Good for you, but not that relevant for people that do. Waking up Saturday morning and deciding to drive out to a destination like this, spend the night, and then drive back the next day is not considered unreasonable. >The bigger question is - why is it strictly necessarily to have to use it for ten minutes - just to get milk? Because I need milk for a recipe I just found online and I don't want to wait 15 minutes for the next train, ride for 10 minutes, shop for 5 minutes, wait 15 minutes for the return train, and then ride for 10 minutes. And those times even generously assume I live right on a stop and there is a store right on a stop.

stephengillie 10y ago

Having grown up in rural US, where owning a car is a necessity of life - 15 miles to the nearest store on 45mph roads with no sidewalks - and now living within Seattle, it's not quite so bad. Taking 1 bus to another city costs as much as gas to drive there and back, so commuting feels more expensive on top of feeling less convenient. If you don't live inside a major city, or if you live in a car-friendly area, parking and storing your vehicle is very cheap - often free. Parking and insurance combined may be less than $200/month. When you have a family, or a business group, traveling by car has the added advantage that the rest of the group is unable to become separated from you along the way. Sorry to sound tautological or pedantic, but it's an often-overlooked point. It's almost like putting your family into a ZIP file - on arrival, everyone will still be in the car, nobody will get lost on the way or take the wrong turn. Like young classmates holding a rope on school outings.

vitro 10y ago

While that may be true if you speak for yourself like a single person. But what if you are a couple, or a family? For a long time I did not want a car but when children came, we have bought it and it help our mobility a lot, if you have full car, it is also cheaper travel than paying tickets for everybody. For a travel inside a city I still use public transport wherever I can as it is the fastest and most green way to get around.

ngrilly 10y ago

I lived in a small city on the French Atltantic coast, where I can walk and bike in the city, but I have to drive to go anywhere outside of the city. Having a car is not really an option here; it's mandatory. I also lived in Paris, where I used public transports exclusively. I hadn't a car. Honestly, in both cases, there is no free lunch. In Paris, most people don't have a car, but yet they still live far away from their jobs and have hellish commute. I agree that cars bring a lot of complexity, but stuffing all people in the same area also bring its share of complexity.