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Thanks for tracking that down. I had the same questions. I would be very interested to see followup interviews with a representative sample to investigate the p

Thanks for tracking that down. I had the same questions. I would be very interested to see followup interviews with a representative sample to investigate the percentage of units that would actually be on the market if not for airbnb.

pyrophane 10y ago
It appears that they have done a decent job of identifying full-time Airbnb operations, so it wouldn't be a big leap to think that the 8,058 units they identified as "impact listings" are not on the market because of Airbnb and that they would be if Airbnb were suddenly no longer an option.
themartorana 10y ago
I'm genuinely conflicted about this. On the one hand, I'm all for more housing. It can drive prices down (although not a lot I've seen has ever driven prices down in Manhattan) but at the same time, were I a property owner, I'd want to be able to do with that property as I wish. They're obviously income properties, so why are we mad about them making income in this way? I guess I'm asking whether or not income properties either a) are already regulated as such (and laws are being flaunted) or b) the desire here is to create laws that tightly scope what a property owner can do with their non-primary residentially-zoned property? I can't seem to form an opinion yet, so I'm mostly asking for yours, I guess. I suppose I need a bit more education on the debate. Edit: this isn't where I meant to put this reply. But it's here now, so, if it's slightly out-of-thread, apologies. Edit 2: if it's easier, can someone point me to a cogent and not-lopsided explanation of the debate?
- mancerayder 10y ago
  I'm a property owner in one of the identified areas, for what it's worth, and I can give a summarized piece of the debate and some additional information not everyone knows. One pro-AirBnB argument has to do with property rights, and doesn't have to be rehashed as you implied it ('doing as you wish'). Another has to do with the idea that housing is so expensive, that a renter can help pay his/her high rent by supplementing the income. <- this latter argument is obviously not part of the 'landlords are renting out entire apartment' complaint. One anti-AirBnB argument has to do with some of the target areas being gentrifying neighborhoods (Bushwick, Bed Stuy, others; we're not talking about Tribeca here). In these, further increasing the scarcity of housing by taking the apartments out of the long-term rental market increases rent and displaces long-time, mostly poorer residents. This argument is given more by progressives. Another anti-AirBnB argument, this time by the hotel lobby, is that hotels have to pay different taxes, and abide by different standards of code and safety [ similar to the anti-Uber arguments, I guess ] and that it's not fair. In 2010 a law was passed which made it illegal to rent the entire apartment for less than 30 days. So if you're a renter, for example, you can rent out a room. One item of note is that in the State of New York, occupying a unit for 30 days or more grants one to certain rights as a tenant, meaning the landlord has significant hurdles in pursuing an eviction. I believe this set of laws [ edit: <30 days, not the tenants rights], which I believe went into effect in 2011, is referred to as the illegal hotel law. One often overlooked fact is that the law here excludes 2 and 3 family homes from the illegal hotel law. The punchline I'll add is that, in the gentrifying areas I mentioned above, a large piece of the housing stock is 2 and 3 family (especially 3 family) homes.
  - eternalban 10y ago
    I would question the assertion that Bushwick's (and BK's in general) gentrification is Airbnb driven. Manhattan's rental picture started getting unreasonable around turn of the century. Williamsburg, for example, was pretty much an urban wasteland around 1997 but was already a 'beach-head' of adventerous/artist tribe of Manhattan exiles. Regardless, the displacement of poor people from these areas is self evident. What I find objectionable in terms of Airbnb is the corrosive effect that the transitional flux has on cities and neighborhoods. Manhattan is now basically worlds largest open air shopping center -- yes a bit shinier than before but not the Gotham of yore (which is sorely missed).
    - themartorana 10y ago
      Thanks, guys!

pyrophane 10y ago

It appears that they have done a decent job of identifying full-time Airbnb operations, so it wouldn't be a big leap to think that the 8,058 units they identified as "impact listings" are not on the market because of Airbnb and that they would be if Airbnb were suddenly no longer an option.

themartorana 10y ago

I'm genuinely conflicted about this. On the one hand, I'm all for more housing. It can drive prices down (although not a lot I've seen has ever driven prices down in Manhattan) but at the same time, were I a property owner, I'd want to be able to do with that property as I wish. They're obviously income properties, so why are we mad about them making income in this way? I guess I'm asking whether or not income properties either a) are already regulated as such (and laws are being flaunted) or b) the desire here is to create laws that tightly scope what a property owner can do with their non-primary residentially-zoned property? I can't seem to form an opinion yet, so I'm mostly asking for yours, I guess. I suppose I need a bit more education on the debate. Edit: this isn't where I meant to put this reply. But it's here now, so, if it's slightly out-of-thread, apologies. Edit 2: if it's easier, can someone point me to a cogent and not-lopsided explanation of the debate?

mancerayder 10y ago
I'm a property owner in one of the identified areas, for what it's worth, and I can give a summarized piece of the debate and some additional information not everyone knows. One pro-AirBnB argument has to do with property rights, and doesn't have to be rehashed as you implied it ('doing as you wish'). Another has to do with the idea that housing is so expensive, that a renter can help pay his/her high rent by supplementing the income. <- this latter argument is obviously not part of the 'landlords are renting out entire apartment' complaint. One anti-AirBnB argument has to do with some of the target areas being gentrifying neighborhoods (Bushwick, Bed Stuy, others; we're not talking about Tribeca here). In these, further increasing the scarcity of housing by taking the apartments out of the long-term rental market increases rent and displaces long-time, mostly poorer residents. This argument is given more by progressives. Another anti-AirBnB argument, this time by the hotel lobby, is that hotels have to pay different taxes, and abide by different standards of code and safety [ similar to the anti-Uber arguments, I guess ] and that it's not fair. In 2010 a law was passed which made it illegal to rent the entire apartment for less than 30 days. So if you're a renter, for example, you can rent out a room. One item of note is that in the State of New York, occupying a unit for 30 days or more grants one to certain rights as a tenant, meaning the landlord has significant hurdles in pursuing an eviction. I believe this set of laws [ edit: <30 days, not the tenants rights], which I believe went into effect in 2011, is referred to as the illegal hotel law. One often overlooked fact is that the law here excludes 2 and 3 family homes from the illegal hotel law. The punchline I'll add is that, in the gentrifying areas I mentioned above, a large piece of the housing stock is 2 and 3 family (especially 3 family) homes.
- eternalban 10y ago
  I would question the assertion that Bushwick's (and BK's in general) gentrification is Airbnb driven. Manhattan's rental picture started getting unreasonable around turn of the century. Williamsburg, for example, was pretty much an urban wasteland around 1997 but was already a 'beach-head' of adventerous/artist tribe of Manhattan exiles. Regardless, the displacement of poor people from these areas is self evident. What I find objectionable in terms of Airbnb is the corrosive effect that the transitional flux has on cities and neighborhoods. Manhattan is now basically worlds largest open air shopping center -- yes a bit shinier than before but not the Gotham of yore (which is sorely missed).
  - themartorana 10y ago
    Thanks, guys!