5 ms·

"How can we make rules and regulations that are comprehensive while also being easily understandable? Can we fit all rules for the city in 100 pages of text?"

"How can we make rules and regulations that are comprehensive while also being easily understandable? Can we fit all rules for the city in 100 pages of text?" If you give arbitrary power to those who enforce the rules, sure, they can fit in 100 pages. If you don't value predictability and consistency of enforcement, sure, they can fit in 100 pages. In fact, the rules can fit onto one page. The Ten Commandments are pretty short. However, if you want to have a predictable body of law administered fairly, it's going to take a lot more than 100 pages. Even the Ten Commandments aren't that simple when it's time for practical application. You can simply decide on a case-by-case basis and not write down what you do, and then it will fit in 100 pages. But if you give notice to others about what your decisions are, and you are bound by previous decisions...well, that sounds a lot like a common-law system. Decisions in such a system are going to exceed 100 pages. These things aren't as simple as it seems...there are good reasons why the Supreme Court once considered what it meant to "use" a firearm.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
I disagree. If you site the city in the US, you can use the existing governance models. Most of the what YC wants to do can be done with local zoning ordinances (tied together with restricted deeds or community lands trusts/co-ops), with the populace (hypothetically made up of citizens who are conducive to this experiment) voting at the local city government level. This is not new territory. They're building a master planned community (with what you might consider an HOA on steroids), and based on their requirements, I think they going to do an incredible job compared to your average real estate developer.
- massysett 10y ago
  Local zoning ordinances don't fit in 100 pages. The huge body of real estate law that is necessary to give force to restricted deeds doesn't fit in 100 pages. Maybe they mean their 100 pages looks something like "The Law of the City of Newcity is identical to the Law of Dallas, with the following changes:"? Well, the law of Dallas does not fit in 100 pages. Law is complicated because we have built a complicated society. This cannot be willed away by talking about 100 pages.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I don't disagree, but HN can merely add to existing law with their self-built city; they're not going to be able to negate existing country/state/province law, so why would they need to fit all law within 100 pages? Find the locality that already meets your needs closest, iterate from there.
nickff 10y ago
I am of the opposite view; if the people do not know and understand the rules, then then they cannot be expected to abide by them. There are so many criminal, civil, and regulatory laws that the people could not possibly be expected to know, that the system is unfair. Lawyers will often say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that is a manifestly unreasonable doctrine when even the regulators, legislators, and prosecutors have no idea of how many laws there are, and what is illegal. My view is that there should be two classes in grade 10; one on criminal law, and one on civil, and the laws should never be more complex or more numerous than can be explained to a 15 year-old in those two semesters. I think most people would agree that using a firearm is shooting it, but that problem would easily be solved by changing the word to "discharging" it.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  So pointing a loaded pistol at a clerk while robbing a store is then not using the firearm?
  - nickff 10y ago
    No, pointing any firearm at a clerk would be assault (with a weapon), whether or not it was loaded. If I told you that I went to a shooting range and used my gun, what would you think? That I'd pointed it at stuff? If I said that I went out onto the street and used my rifle, you would not surmise that I had looked over the iron sights. note: I do not own a firearm
    - brewdad 10y ago
      So assault...using a firearm.
      - nickff 10y ago
        I believe that most (all?) laws refer to such behavior as assault 'with a weapon' or 'with a firearm'. Google auto-corrects 'assault using a firearm' to 'assault with a firearm'.
hx87 10y ago
I wonder if it would be feasible to train a neural network on a large corpus of test cases where legality/illegality have already been defined, then release this neural network to the public. Sure, the process will be opaque, but it will be consistent between different users, and answers can be sought almost immediately with little to no costs. In many cases, an immediate straight up no is more valuable than a maybe suspended over months or years.
- tdaltonc 10y ago
  Until someone finds an edge-case or a way to reverse engineer it. http://www.evolvingai.org/fooling http://www.evolvingai.org/fooling
jonnycowboy 10y ago
It could be 100 pages if you start from scratch with a permissive development plan... (from a city standpoint). Issues such as criminal law, state and federal taxation, etc are outside the purvue of this discussion (and of the 100 page limit) since YCR is speaking of a _city_, likely within the US. Put a draft up on github and see it fork away!

toomuchtodo 10y ago

I disagree. If you site the city in the US, you can use the existing governance models. Most of the what YC wants to do can be done with local zoning ordinances (tied together with restricted deeds or community lands trusts/co-ops), with the populace (hypothetically made up of citizens who are conducive to this experiment) voting at the local city government level. This is not new territory. They're building a master planned community (with what you might consider an HOA on steroids), and based on their requirements, I think they going to do an incredible job compared to your average real estate developer.

massysett 10y ago
Local zoning ordinances don't fit in 100 pages. The huge body of real estate law that is necessary to give force to restricted deeds doesn't fit in 100 pages. Maybe they mean their 100 pages looks something like "The Law of the City of Newcity is identical to the Law of Dallas, with the following changes:"? Well, the law of Dallas does not fit in 100 pages. Law is complicated because we have built a complicated society. This cannot be willed away by talking about 100 pages.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I don't disagree, but HN can merely add to existing law with their self-built city; they're not going to be able to negate existing country/state/province law, so why would they need to fit all law within 100 pages? Find the locality that already meets your needs closest, iterate from there.

nickff 10y ago

I am of the opposite view; if the people do not know and understand the rules, then then they cannot be expected to abide by them. There are so many criminal, civil, and regulatory laws that the people could not possibly be expected to know, that the system is unfair. Lawyers will often say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that is a manifestly unreasonable doctrine when even the regulators, legislators, and prosecutors have no idea of how many laws there are, and what is illegal. My view is that there should be two classes in grade 10; one on criminal law, and one on civil, and the laws should never be more complex or more numerous than can be explained to a 15 year-old in those two semesters. I think most people would agree that using a firearm is shooting it, but that problem would easily be solved by changing the word to "discharging" it.

maxerickson 10y ago
So pointing a loaded pistol at a clerk while robbing a store is then not using the firearm?
- nickff 10y ago
  No, pointing any firearm at a clerk would be assault (with a weapon), whether or not it was loaded. If I told you that I went to a shooting range and used my gun, what would you think? That I'd pointed it at stuff? If I said that I went out onto the street and used my rifle, you would not surmise that I had looked over the iron sights. note: I do not own a firearm
  - brewdad 10y ago
    So assault...using a firearm.
    - nickff 10y ago
      I believe that most (all?) laws refer to such behavior as assault 'with a weapon' or 'with a firearm'. Google auto-corrects 'assault using a firearm' to 'assault with a firearm'.

hx87 10y ago

I wonder if it would be feasible to train a neural network on a large corpus of test cases where legality/illegality have already been defined, then release this neural network to the public. Sure, the process will be opaque, but it will be consistent between different users, and answers can be sought almost immediately with little to no costs. In many cases, an immediate straight up no is more valuable than a maybe suspended over months or years.

tdaltonc 10y ago
Until someone finds an edge-case or a way to reverse engineer it. http://www.evolvingai.org/fooling http://www.evolvingai.org/fooling

jonnycowboy 10y ago

It could be 100 pages if you start from scratch with a permissive development plan... (from a city standpoint). Issues such as criminal law, state and federal taxation, etc are outside the purvue of this discussion (and of the 100 page limit) since YCR is speaking of a _city_, likely within the US. Put a draft up on github and see it fork away!