4 ms·

See, this is a GREAT comparison, because thinking, "No one will call 911 at 3am" EASILY falls into the realm of destructive negligence. Like "I didn't realize

by Fordrus 10y ago

See, this is a GREAT comparison, because thinking, "No one will call 911 at 3am" EASILY falls into the realm of destructive negligence. Like "I didn't realize these cars could be hit from the side!" or, "I didn't realize how much worse I drive when I am drunk, officer!" In the 3am 911 case, those admins could EASILY have cost LIVES with their decision. If that inbound call handler's machine had updates waiting, or more especially had any difficulty installing those updates, you could've had HOURS of downtime in a scenario where MINUTES mean life or death! I guess my main point is that naivete like that is called criminal negligence and is punishable under the law in many cases. There may have been no malicious intent, but in a case so potentially catastrophic, it hardly matters, and if those admins didn't get into DEEP TROUBLE, they're either very lucky or your administrative discipline system is VERY broken. And Microsoft is straying into similar territory with this whole thing.

snerbles 10y ago
> and if those admins didn't get into DEEP TROUBLE, they're either very lucky or your administrative discipline system is VERY broken Our commander talked to their commander, I'm sure at least one finger was wagged at them in disapproval.
- tremon 10y ago
  and this is how incompetence lives on.
freehunter 10y ago
That's why you have change control meetings with a change advisory board. Yes they're boring and yes very often the changes don't affect you at all, but it's really nice to hear an admin say "we're taking down critical system X at Y time" and have the ability to say "no you won't, that's when Operation Z is being run". And that's why a liaison from the "business" side of the organization should be in those meetings too.
vocatus_gate 10y ago
I'm working in Antarctica and we BARELY caught one of our science systems a couple hours before it was about to kick off that stupid auto-upgrade. It would have broke a very expensive and custom box built to run these experiments, which was transported down here at great cost. If I hadn't been wandering by checking on something else I'd never have seen the window and it would've wrecked some poor grantee's years and years of work, just like that.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  If it's so critical, why hadn't anybody turned off auto-updates? This problem isn't new with Windows 10. It could have just as easily upgrade to a new Windows 7 patch which broke the product.
  - vocatus_gate 10y ago
    Do you want the real answer? Every grantee and science group is different, and builds their boxes back in the States with varying levels of IT competence. Being a wizard in geothermal imaging doesn't mean you're a wizard in building Windows 10 boxes. So there's all these varying groups (we support over 20 different science groups on our station alone) building their custom boxes on a variety of OS's and hardware to support all their strange sensors and equipment, and many of them are so specialized that no one is allowed to touch them. Nearly all science systems run Windows 7 or some flavor of Linux, and because there is literally YEARS of work leading up to one of these systems appearing on station, we are loath to touch them for fear of breaking some long-running or fragile science project. In this situation I used my best judgement and determined that blocking Windows 10 would prevent more problems than it would cause for this group, and fortunately I was right.
    - blakeyrat 10y ago
      Right; but you're solving a symptom, not the problem. It sounds like what you really need is some sort of approval process, or at the very least a checklist, to ensure these machines are configured in the way they should be. Or, at the very least, that the teams involved understand the implications of a computer sitting in a base in the middle of nowhere with auto-updates turned on. The point I was trying to make is that the problem you're seeing isn't specific to Windows 10; it could have easily happened on Windows 7 or 8 or 8.1 instead.
blakeyrat 10y ago
A computer that reboots to update to Windows 10 could also have updated to install a bug patch; it was set to auto-update. If a computer system is so mission-critical that it should never updated, well, Windows has a setting for that-- so turn it on!

by Fordrus 10y ago

snerbles 10y ago

> and if those admins didn't get into DEEP TROUBLE, they're either very lucky or your administrative discipline system is VERY broken Our commander talked to their commander, I'm sure at least one finger was wagged at them in disapproval.

tremon 10y ago
and this is how incompetence lives on.

freehunter 10y ago

That's why you have change control meetings with a change advisory board. Yes they're boring and yes very often the changes don't affect you at all, but it's really nice to hear an admin say "we're taking down critical system X at Y time" and have the ability to say "no you won't, that's when Operation Z is being run". And that's why a liaison from the "business" side of the organization should be in those meetings too.

vocatus_gate 10y ago

I'm working in Antarctica and we BARELY caught one of our science systems a couple hours before it was about to kick off that stupid auto-upgrade. It would have broke a very expensive and custom box built to run these experiments, which was transported down here at great cost. If I hadn't been wandering by checking on something else I'd never have seen the window and it would've wrecked some poor grantee's years and years of work, just like that.

blakeyrat 10y ago
If it's so critical, why hadn't anybody turned off auto-updates? This problem isn't new with Windows 10. It could have just as easily upgrade to a new Windows 7 patch which broke the product.
- vocatus_gate 10y ago
  Do you want the real answer? Every grantee and science group is different, and builds their boxes back in the States with varying levels of IT competence. Being a wizard in geothermal imaging doesn't mean you're a wizard in building Windows 10 boxes. So there's all these varying groups (we support over 20 different science groups on our station alone) building their custom boxes on a variety of OS's and hardware to support all their strange sensors and equipment, and many of them are so specialized that no one is allowed to touch them. Nearly all science systems run Windows 7 or some flavor of Linux, and because there is literally YEARS of work leading up to one of these systems appearing on station, we are loath to touch them for fear of breaking some long-running or fragile science project. In this situation I used my best judgement and determined that blocking Windows 10 would prevent more problems than it would cause for this group, and fortunately I was right.
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    Right; but you're solving a symptom, not the problem. It sounds like what you really need is some sort of approval process, or at the very least a checklist, to ensure these machines are configured in the way they should be. Or, at the very least, that the teams involved understand the implications of a computer sitting in a base in the middle of nowhere with auto-updates turned on. The point I was trying to make is that the problem you're seeing isn't specific to Windows 10; it could have easily happened on Windows 7 or 8 or 8.1 instead.

blakeyrat 10y ago

A computer that reboots to update to Windows 10 could also have updated to install a bug patch; it was set to auto-update. If a computer system is so mission-critical that it should never updated, well, Windows has a setting for that-- so turn it on!