4 ms·

Living is also not as pricey tho

p4wnc6 10y ago
It doesn't balance out at all. If you care about being a very successful start-up, then you are implicitly competing for international talent, whether you like it or not. The same people choosing to work in SV are the people you should be trying to convince to work in Berlin. Saying they get ~ 50k euros/year but don't worry, the cost of living is low is a universal non-starter. That's just simply not competitive. The cost of living is not so low that a person can reduce their salary to around 1/3 of what they could make in New York or SF and expect to have the same quality of life. You're basically handcuffing one arm behind your back by basing yourself in Berlin (or many other places) because now your pool of applicants is limited to only those people who have some ulterior reason to be interested in living in Berlin and are willing to make a Faustian bargain regarding huge reduction in their wage (even relative to cost of living).
- Xylakant 10y ago
  american and german salaries are fundamentally not comparable if you look at the bare numbers. German salaries already include pension and healthcare for example, for which the employer pays 50% of the total, which goes on top of the salary. That alone makes a 50k EUR salary more similar to a 75k USD salary (not taking into account the exchange rate, which adds another 10% as of today). There's also at least 4 weeks of paid holidays and unlimited paid sick-leave. Rent difference can easily account for something like 1k to 2k per month. Rent is still comparatively cheap even in the most expensive and central parts of Berlin. Having 15 minutes of travel to the office instead of hours can also change the equation massively, at least if you're looking at your quality of life. The crucial number is how much money is left in your bank account after all your expenses are paid for - and that can vary massively depending on your personal lifestyle. The salary before taxes and other costs is a fairly uninteresting figure.
  - p4wnc6 10y ago
    In 3 out of the 4 jobs I've had in America, I have paid zero premium for health insurance (100% paid by employer), and had either 4 or 5 weeks of vacation (not including between 9 and 12 company holidays too). Even with the exchange rate, my base salary was more than triple the $50k euros amount, and I have < 4 years of experience. I am a specialist in my area which makes my case a bit harder to compare, but still, the offer of provided healthcare and 4 weeks vacation doesn't make foreign jobs more attractive to me. I've had that in almost every American job I've had and also was paid a wage that was high enough to comfortably exceed local cost of living. In fact, I generally find that when an employer has to start nervously listing side perks like medical coverage or vacation as apologetic offerings to excuse an obviously poor salary relative to cost of living, it's a huge red flag that they know they are not equipped to recruit exceptional people. In all my comments I am already talking about how much money you have left after general cost of living expenses. Even though such costs are lower in Berlin than in many major US cities, the salaries in Berlin are even lower at a disproportional level. Unless you adopt a more ascetic lifestyle, your lower salary in Berlin will not stretch as far despite the lower costs. The costs, while lower, aren't low enough.
- dragandj 10y ago
  You forget a very big factor: only US citizens can move to SV or NY without many hoops. If you are from EU, you can go to Berlin with no fuss, if you can get a job. Maybe your US counterpart can go to SV, but you need a visa rain dance, which make sense only if you are a star that some company want to pay a fortune to bring there. Maybe Google and Facebook take the 0.001 % of the top developers. But, top 1% is not bad either. Also, there is a lot of talent in Eastern Europe. For them, there are hoops and work visas for both EU and US, but, US hoops are much more difficult to pass. Not to mention that Berlin has a great nigthlife. SF? Only complaints about the male/female ratio and nerd-dominated culture. So, while SV is certainly the center of the industry, 100K in Berlin can give a much better life than 200K in SV, especially for people with EU citizenship.

It doesn't balance out at all. If you care about being a very successful start-up, then you are implicitly competing for international talent, whether you like it or not. The same people choosing to work in SV are the people you should be trying to convince to work in Berlin. Saying they get ~ 50k euros/year but don't worry, the cost of living is low is a universal non-starter. That's just simply not competitive. The cost of living is not so low that a person can reduce their salary to around 1/3 of what they could make in New York or SF and expect to have the same quality of life. You're basically handcuffing one arm behind your back by basing yourself in Berlin (or many other places) because now your pool of applicants is limited to only those people who have some ulterior reason to be interested in living in Berlin and are willing to make a Faustian bargain regarding huge reduction in their wage (even relative to cost of living).

Xylakant 10y ago
american and german salaries are fundamentally not comparable if you look at the bare numbers. German salaries already include pension and healthcare for example, for which the employer pays 50% of the total, which goes on top of the salary. That alone makes a 50k EUR salary more similar to a 75k USD salary (not taking into account the exchange rate, which adds another 10% as of today). There's also at least 4 weeks of paid holidays and unlimited paid sick-leave. Rent difference can easily account for something like 1k to 2k per month. Rent is still comparatively cheap even in the most expensive and central parts of Berlin. Having 15 minutes of travel to the office instead of hours can also change the equation massively, at least if you're looking at your quality of life. The crucial number is how much money is left in your bank account after all your expenses are paid for - and that can vary massively depending on your personal lifestyle. The salary before taxes and other costs is a fairly uninteresting figure.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  In 3 out of the 4 jobs I've had in America, I have paid zero premium for health insurance (100% paid by employer), and had either 4 or 5 weeks of vacation (not including between 9 and 12 company holidays too). Even with the exchange rate, my base salary was more than triple the $50k euros amount, and I have < 4 years of experience. I am a specialist in my area which makes my case a bit harder to compare, but still, the offer of provided healthcare and 4 weeks vacation doesn't make foreign jobs more attractive to me. I've had that in almost every American job I've had and also was paid a wage that was high enough to comfortably exceed local cost of living. In fact, I generally find that when an employer has to start nervously listing side perks like medical coverage or vacation as apologetic offerings to excuse an obviously poor salary relative to cost of living, it's a huge red flag that they know they are not equipped to recruit exceptional people. In all my comments I am already talking about how much money you have left after general cost of living expenses. Even though such costs are lower in Berlin than in many major US cities, the salaries in Berlin are even lower at a disproportional level. Unless you adopt a more ascetic lifestyle, your lower salary in Berlin will not stretch as far despite the lower costs. The costs, while lower, aren't low enough.
dragandj 10y ago
You forget a very big factor: only US citizens can move to SV or NY without many hoops. If you are from EU, you can go to Berlin with no fuss, if you can get a job. Maybe your US counterpart can go to SV, but you need a visa rain dance, which make sense only if you are a star that some company want to pay a fortune to bring there. Maybe Google and Facebook take the 0.001 % of the top developers. But, top 1% is not bad either. Also, there is a lot of talent in Eastern Europe. For them, there are hoops and work visas for both EU and US, but, US hoops are much more difficult to pass. Not to mention that Berlin has a great nigthlife. SF? Only complaints about the male/female ratio and nerd-dominated culture. So, while SV is certainly the center of the industry, 100K in Berlin can give a much better life than 200K in SV, especially for people with EU citizenship.