4 ms·

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which i

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with modern infrastructure, a skilled workforce, a pleasant climate and low corporate taxes.

fredley 10y ago
The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied), putting further pressure on the remaining stock. Many other factors too - it's a big complicated mess, but these are some of the biggest ones.
- rwallace 10y ago
  Oh, you're right, startups aren't the main cause of the problem, but anything that moves out of London will help a bit, and it would certainly be good if people who want to create or work in startups had better options.
  - fredley 10y ago
    Yeah, the extent to which the banking sector leaves might make an impact, but the collapse of sterling is probably going to drive more investment into London property, not less.
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      Unlikely while sterling is crashing. London prices will soon follow, as The Money leaves town. If there's a recovery it will be years from now, when there are easy profits to be made. Currently there are easy losses to be made, and no one wants that.
      - cyphunk 10y ago
        I think, from watching this happen in Berlin, most property investors are not looking for short gains. In Berlin I think the rent-protection laws pretty much force you to be a long term investor, if you are going to invest. I'd assume most property investors in London are also long term. As you mention, gains will be years from now. But unless the fundamentals of international capital change in those years, it's likely anyone with spare capital will find the 10 year wait on a London investment more than pays off during recovery.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Sounds to me like the same kind of crap that has been going on everywhere since the 80s or there about. A while lot of household debt being funneled into a Ponzi scheme based on flipping properties.
parennoob 10y ago
Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?
- rwallace 10y ago
  Yes. The housing situation in Dublin is not as good as I'd like it to be, but it is significantly better than London, even if that is damning with faint praise.
- rsynnott 10y ago
  Much cheaper. Dublin has a housing crisis (and housing is still far more expensive than Berlin, say), but it's not London levels of absurd. Yet.
- paublyrne 10y ago
  Dublin has a housing crisis, with a huge shortfall in properties for rent. Construction has largely stalled since 2008.
Wintamute 10y ago
Brexit may re-adjust house prices in London by as much as 10 - 18%, so there's that...
lgieron 10y ago
> a pleasant climate I've heard that washing your car in Ireland is a non-issue; the climate takes care of that.
- clentaminator 10y ago
  Some of us actually like the rain ;)
- paublyrne 10y ago
  The regularity and amount of rainfall in Ireland is greatly exaggerated. The west of the country certainly is a good deal wetter than the east, facing the Atlantic. This list ranks Ireland 80th in terms of rainfall, below Switzerland the UK, Japan, and New Zealand. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Geography/Average-rainfall-in-depth/Mm-per-year http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Geography/Ave...
- Udik 10y ago
  The weather is actually terrible. Not cold in the winter, it rarely snows, but just dull, rainy and windy all year round. It's so bad that in sunny summer days people wish each other "enjoy the sun", and sometimes companies give employees half a day off to celebrate.
- collyw 10y ago
  Worked for me in Scotland, which has a very similar climate.
cyphunk 10y ago
The middle-class seems to be something tied to a different era, of industrialization and lifetime jobs. The dwindling middle-class may have more to do with our changing work behavior and desires, than it does cost of living?
secfirstmd 10y ago
People of Ireland speaking here: -Want to stay in the EU? -Want to trade in the Eurozone? -Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government? -Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea... http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...) Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)
- nojvek 10y ago
  Is it very multicultural though? I've heard from friends who have travelled there that non-white folks aren't treated the same and there's a bit of cultural bias. i'd love to visit though.
  - secfirstmd 10y ago
    It's a small place so never going to be as multi-cultural as New York or London but it's done a decent job of integrating new cultures over the past two decades...of course if you English be prepared to have people take the piss out of you during football/rugby matches etc... :)

fredley 10y ago

The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied), putting further pressure on the remaining stock. Many other factors too - it's a big complicated mess, but these are some of the biggest ones.

rwallace 10y ago
Oh, you're right, startups aren't the main cause of the problem, but anything that moves out of London will help a bit, and it would certainly be good if people who want to create or work in startups had better options.
- fredley 10y ago
  Yeah, the extent to which the banking sector leaves might make an impact, but the collapse of sterling is probably going to drive more investment into London property, not less.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    Unlikely while sterling is crashing. London prices will soon follow, as The Money leaves town. If there's a recovery it will be years from now, when there are easy profits to be made. Currently there are easy losses to be made, and no one wants that.
    - cyphunk 10y ago
      I think, from watching this happen in Berlin, most property investors are not looking for short gains. In Berlin I think the rent-protection laws pretty much force you to be a long term investor, if you are going to invest. I'd assume most property investors in London are also long term. As you mention, gains will be years from now. But unless the fundamentals of international capital change in those years, it's likely anyone with spare capital will find the 10 year wait on a London investment more than pays off during recovery.
digi_owl 10y ago
Sounds to me like the same kind of crap that has been going on everywhere since the 80s or there about. A while lot of household debt being funneled into a Ponzi scheme based on flipping properties.

parennoob 10y ago

Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?

rwallace 10y ago
Yes. The housing situation in Dublin is not as good as I'd like it to be, but it is significantly better than London, even if that is damning with faint praise.
rsynnott 10y ago
Much cheaper. Dublin has a housing crisis (and housing is still far more expensive than Berlin, say), but it's not London levels of absurd. Yet.
paublyrne 10y ago
Dublin has a housing crisis, with a huge shortfall in properties for rent. Construction has largely stalled since 2008.

Wintamute 10y ago

Brexit may re-adjust house prices in London by as much as 10 - 18%, so there's that...

lgieron 10y ago

> a pleasant climate I've heard that washing your car in Ireland is a non-issue; the climate takes care of that.

clentaminator 10y ago
Some of us actually like the rain ;)
paublyrne 10y ago
The regularity and amount of rainfall in Ireland is greatly exaggerated. The west of the country certainly is a good deal wetter than the east, facing the Atlantic. This list ranks Ireland 80th in terms of rainfall, below Switzerland the UK, Japan, and New Zealand. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Geography/Average-rainfall-in-depth/Mm-per-year http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Geography/Ave...
Udik 10y ago
The weather is actually terrible. Not cold in the winter, it rarely snows, but just dull, rainy and windy all year round. It's so bad that in sunny summer days people wish each other "enjoy the sun", and sometimes companies give employees half a day off to celebrate.
collyw 10y ago
Worked for me in Scotland, which has a very similar climate.

cyphunk 10y ago

The middle-class seems to be something tied to a different era, of industrialization and lifetime jobs. The dwindling middle-class may have more to do with our changing work behavior and desires, than it does cost of living?

secfirstmd 10y ago

People of Ireland speaking here: -Want to stay in the EU? -Want to trade in the Eurozone? -Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government? -Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea... http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...) Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)

nojvek 10y ago
Is it very multicultural though? I've heard from friends who have travelled there that non-white folks aren't treated the same and there's a bit of cultural bias. i'd love to visit though.
- secfirstmd 10y ago
  It's a small place so never going to be as multi-cultural as New York or London but it's done a decent job of integrating new cultures over the past two decades...of course if you English be prepared to have people take the piss out of you during football/rugby matches etc... :)