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Sounds like you actually agree, and have identified an underlying problem. The technical ability to capture knowledge, particularly for craft trades like glass

Sounds like you actually agree, and have identified an underlying problem. The technical ability to capture knowledge, particularly for craft trades like glassblowing, has existed for as long as humans have been organized into societies - it's usually a question of dedicating resources to support it. The apprenticeship model needs a renaissance.

losteric 10y ago
We need to get away from the dogma that everyone must and will get a college degree. Apprenticeships are as good, if not better, for many fields... especially in the world of software.
- andrewflnr 10y ago
  Eh, it's going to be hard to replace a proper algorithms or computability class with an apprenticeship. I'd like to see a combined approach, classes in between an apprenticeship-style arrangement.
  - losteric 10y ago
    I don't think all programmers need a proper algorithms class. Think about construction. There are manual laborers with no domain knowledge that can do basic grunt work for pennies on the dollar, some with domain expertise to guide the grunts, and people that coordinate the entire construction project. Then there's an entirely separate group of people actually working on architecture... designing the building, ensuring the structure can hold load, meets customer and legal requirements, and can be delivered on a schedule. At my company, a good SDE1 hire is someone that's at the architecture-level... they might not be able to design a skyscraper but they can design a house. Yet 90%+ of their time will be spent putting up walls and installing plumbing. That's ridiculous for everyone involved.
    - p_l 10y ago
      That's more a disaster of our tooling - that we have menial work still, even though it was regarded bad and avoidable in 1970s with C! (not to mention smalltalk, lisp, etc.).
    - andrewflnr 10y ago
      They might get the thing done, but they'll do a worse job than someone who also knows about algorithmic complexity, CPU architecture, and other things that benefit from classroom instruction. We're not installing plumbing, we're doing mental work, where context matters. And I can't recommend that anyone aim for less than excellence.
      - eonw 10y ago
        plumbers and electricians, during their apprenticeships spend a LOT of time in classroom environments. they are even required to spend X hours per year to keep their skills up as well. so i would say they two are in fact very similar. classroom mixed with real world use of that knowledge is better then just sitting in class the entire time with no chance to get real world usage, help and walk-throughs, until after the fact. in which case apprenticeship might be better then a degree.

losteric 10y ago

We need to get away from the dogma that everyone must and will get a college degree. Apprenticeships are as good, if not better, for many fields... especially in the world of software.

andrewflnr 10y ago
Eh, it's going to be hard to replace a proper algorithms or computability class with an apprenticeship. I'd like to see a combined approach, classes in between an apprenticeship-style arrangement.
- losteric 10y ago
  I don't think all programmers need a proper algorithms class. Think about construction. There are manual laborers with no domain knowledge that can do basic grunt work for pennies on the dollar, some with domain expertise to guide the grunts, and people that coordinate the entire construction project. Then there's an entirely separate group of people actually working on architecture... designing the building, ensuring the structure can hold load, meets customer and legal requirements, and can be delivered on a schedule. At my company, a good SDE1 hire is someone that's at the architecture-level... they might not be able to design a skyscraper but they can design a house. Yet 90%+ of their time will be spent putting up walls and installing plumbing. That's ridiculous for everyone involved.
  - p_l 10y ago
    That's more a disaster of our tooling - that we have menial work still, even though it was regarded bad and avoidable in 1970s with C! (not to mention smalltalk, lisp, etc.).
  - andrewflnr 10y ago
    They might get the thing done, but they'll do a worse job than someone who also knows about algorithmic complexity, CPU architecture, and other things that benefit from classroom instruction. We're not installing plumbing, we're doing mental work, where context matters. And I can't recommend that anyone aim for less than excellence.
    - eonw 10y ago
      plumbers and electricians, during their apprenticeships spend a LOT of time in classroom environments. they are even required to spend X hours per year to keep their skills up as well. so i would say they two are in fact very similar. classroom mixed with real world use of that knowledge is better then just sitting in class the entire time with no chance to get real world usage, help and walk-throughs, until after the fact. in which case apprenticeship might be better then a degree.