7 ms·

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leav

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

Nursie 10y ago
This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?
- antouank 10y ago
  I just mentioned the facts after the result. Are they not? And I'm trying to say that they have such a big effect, that defending them is not, in the long-term, good thing for this society. I'm just sad that a minority is viewed falsely as a majority.
- r0muald 10y ago
  Calling episodes of racism and xenophobia for what they are qualifies as "hate" towards those who voted Leave? The attack on the Polish cultural centre is "rhetoric"? The murder of Jo Cox is rhetoric? Feel offended, but at least don't try to paint yourself as subject of hate.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    The incidents you mention were awful and are not to be tolerated. We (as a nation) voted to leave the EU, not to allow this kind of hateful violence. But you know full well that the rhetoric I'm talking about, as exemplified by that post, is the attempt to paint everyone with any 'leave' symapthies as a racist.
    - r0muald 10y ago
      "Of course not all Leavers are racists. That would be a terrible thought. But all racists now think 52% of the population agree with them." https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801 https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?
  - Nursie 10y ago
    Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      Ok, I got you now and appreciate your answer. But let's be honest.. What's that "taking our country back" all about? I'm not saying that this is all voters general opinion, but it sure looks like the majority's. I don't hear anyone coming up with plausible arguments and I really wanted to hear them.
      - Nursie 10y ago
        Oh I'm not going to claim there aren't racists and xenophobes around. I'm outraged that all leave leanings are characterised that way. There are many good arguments and many bad ones that don't involve hatred of foreigners. "Take our country back" would, to me, meaning regaining full legislative control. Yes, this includes immigration, and yes I would limit that based on skills and an annual quota. I don't believe for a second this is racist.
        vmateixeira 10y ago
        Well, I do believe that's racism. Why else would you limit someone coming over their skills? And I'm not saying that feeling racist is abnormal. I'd just prefer people to cut the crap. And I'm actually curious about what would those skills be as I don't believe that's a reasonable approach..
_Understated_ 10y ago
I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reason I want out. This all reeks of bitterness and toy-throwing by those that voted remain. It's over. We are out. Accept it or feel free to move to a European country... I don't mind.
- rndmio 10y ago
  Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    The EU has problems with democratic accountability. That we also have them at the UK level is irrelevant to me, we're not having a referendum on that (yet). Your definition of xenophobic is so wide that it would cover the very existence of nation states within the EU. I don't think all that many people share it.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic Then democracy itself is too > The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself MPs are elected > they don't impose on us because we are part of it Not for much longer.
- collyw 10y ago
  It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.
sievebrain 10y ago
The Remain side has a far bigger and more systematic problem with classism than the Leave side has with racism.
dazc 10y ago
The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  London you mean...
  - dazc 10y ago
    No, all the UK actually
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Look at Gloucestershire. Overall it's not particularly diverse. One of the larger towns (Cheltenham, pop about 110,000) is 96% White British in last census. Nearby Gloucester is much more diverse - one street has over 70 different languages spoken as a first language, and the school in the UK (but outside London) with most different languages spoken as a first language is in Gloucester. So, while I believe the UK is diverse it's a bit more complicated than that.
      - dazc 10y ago
        If you ask ten random people in the UK to tell you where Gloucestershire is I would be surprised if more than three of them would be able to?
        DanBC 10y ago
        They'd know it's roughly south west, near wales. But that makes your point stronger, no? That even in this small (by population, not geographical) rural county there's still a mix of not much diversity and lots of diversity.
        dazc 10y ago
lhnz 10y ago
Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that there are not good, open, free-market reasons to leave the EU. [0] http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit [1] http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/european-union-critical-assessment http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bullet... [2] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
- tt293 10y ago
  Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-regions.png http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...
  - ps4fanboy 10y ago
    You are linking education (specifically having a degree) with intelligence is there anything to correlate this assertion? It comes of as incredible classist, just because plumbers do not have degrees does not mean they are stupider than someone with a degree in interior design.
  - lhnz 10y ago
    My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them. You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which backed Brexit. Rather than hating them perhaps you could try to understand their struggles and feelings on how they have been betrayed by the establishment [0]? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-brit...
robhu 10y ago
Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"
- kuschku 10y ago
  That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.
  - ghgfhgfhn 10y ago
    Perhaps that is what it is saying. Perhaps people are unhappy with representative democracy and want to move actual democracy.
  - Gupie 10y ago
    Couldn't agree more, decisions about the Yorkshire should be taken in the Yorkshire: http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/ http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/

Nursie 10y ago

This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?

antouank 10y ago
I just mentioned the facts after the result. Are they not? And I'm trying to say that they have such a big effect, that defending them is not, in the long-term, good thing for this society. I'm just sad that a minority is viewed falsely as a majority.
r0muald 10y ago
Calling episodes of racism and xenophobia for what they are qualifies as "hate" towards those who voted Leave? The attack on the Polish cultural centre is "rhetoric"? The murder of Jo Cox is rhetoric? Feel offended, but at least don't try to paint yourself as subject of hate.
- Nursie 10y ago
  The incidents you mention were awful and are not to be tolerated. We (as a nation) voted to leave the EU, not to allow this kind of hateful violence. But you know full well that the rhetoric I'm talking about, as exemplified by that post, is the attempt to paint everyone with any 'leave' symapthies as a racist.
  - r0muald 10y ago
    "Of course not all Leavers are racists. That would be a terrible thought. But all racists now think 52% of the population agree with them." https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801 https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801
vmateixeira 10y ago
Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?
- Nursie 10y ago
  Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    Ok, I got you now and appreciate your answer. But let's be honest.. What's that "taking our country back" all about? I'm not saying that this is all voters general opinion, but it sure looks like the majority's. I don't hear anyone coming up with plausible arguments and I really wanted to hear them.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      Oh I'm not going to claim there aren't racists and xenophobes around. I'm outraged that all leave leanings are characterised that way. There are many good arguments and many bad ones that don't involve hatred of foreigners. "Take our country back" would, to me, meaning regaining full legislative control. Yes, this includes immigration, and yes I would limit that based on skills and an annual quota. I don't believe for a second this is racist.
      - vmateixeira 10y ago
        Well, I do believe that's racism. Why else would you limit someone coming over their skills? And I'm not saying that feeling racist is abnormal. I'd just prefer people to cut the crap. And I'm actually curious about what would those skills be as I don't believe that's a reasonable approach..

_Understated_ 10y ago

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reason I want out. This all reeks of bitterness and toy-throwing by those that voted remain. It's over. We are out. Accept it or feel free to move to a European country... I don't mind.

rndmio 10y ago
Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.
- Nursie 10y ago
  The EU has problems with democratic accountability. That we also have them at the UK level is irrelevant to me, we're not having a referendum on that (yet). Your definition of xenophobic is so wide that it would cover the very existence of nation states within the EU. I don't think all that many people share it.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic Then democracy itself is too > The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself MPs are elected > they don't impose on us because we are part of it Not for much longer.
collyw 10y ago
It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.

sievebrain 10y ago

The Remain side has a far bigger and more systematic problem with classism than the Leave side has with racism.

dazc 10y ago

The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.

vmateixeira 10y ago
London you mean...
- dazc 10y ago
  No, all the UK actually
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Look at Gloucestershire. Overall it's not particularly diverse. One of the larger towns (Cheltenham, pop about 110,000) is 96% White British in last census. Nearby Gloucester is much more diverse - one street has over 70 different languages spoken as a first language, and the school in the UK (but outside London) with most different languages spoken as a first language is in Gloucester. So, while I believe the UK is diverse it's a bit more complicated than that.
    - dazc 10y ago
      If you ask ten random people in the UK to tell you where Gloucestershire is I would be surprised if more than three of them would be able to?
      - DanBC 10y ago
        They'd know it's roughly south west, near wales. But that makes your point stronger, no? That even in this small (by population, not geographical) rural county there's still a mix of not much diversity and lots of diversity.
        dazc 10y ago

lhnz 10y ago

Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that there are not good, open, free-market reasons to leave the EU. [0] http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit [1] http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/european-union-critical-assessment http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bullet... [2] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

tt293 10y ago
Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-regions.png http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...
- ps4fanboy 10y ago
  You are linking education (specifically having a degree) with intelligence is there anything to correlate this assertion? It comes of as incredible classist, just because plumbers do not have degrees does not mean they are stupider than someone with a degree in interior design.
- lhnz 10y ago
  My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them. You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which backed Brexit. Rather than hating them perhaps you could try to understand their struggles and feelings on how they have been betrayed by the establishment [0]? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-brit...

robhu 10y ago

Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"

kuschku 10y ago
That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.
- ghgfhgfhn 10y ago
  Perhaps that is what it is saying. Perhaps people are unhappy with representative democracy and want to move actual democracy.
- Gupie 10y ago
  Couldn't agree more, decisions about the Yorkshire should be taken in the Yorkshire: http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/ http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/