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Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they cont

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling them how economy works. So a false 2% margin is "democracy"? Not really. And this decision is way to big to rely on that typical and false margin. The circumstances do matter. Oh, by the way, "The referendum was non-binding, it's advisory".

Nursie 10y ago
1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has no bearing on its democratic legitimacy, nor on the potential fallout of ignoring the result.
- antouank 10y ago
  I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?
    - antouank 10y ago
      I just mentioned the facts after the result. Are they not? And I'm trying to say that they have such a big effect, that defending them is not, in the long-term, good thing for this society. I'm just sad that a minority is viewed falsely as a majority.
    - r0muald 10y ago
      Calling episodes of racism and xenophobia for what they are qualifies as "hate" towards those who voted Leave? The attack on the Polish cultural centre is "rhetoric"? The murder of Jo Cox is rhetoric? Feel offended, but at least don't try to paint yourself as subject of hate.
      - Nursie 10y ago
        The incidents you mention were awful and are not to be tolerated. We (as a nation) voted to leave the EU, not to allow this kind of hateful violence. But you know full well that the rhetoric I'm talking about, as exemplified by that post, is the attempt to paint everyone with any 'leave' symapthies as a racist.
        r0muald 10y ago
        "Of course not all Leavers are racists. That would be a terrible thought. But all racists now think 52% of the population agree with them." https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801 https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?
      - Nursie 10y ago
        Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.
  - _Understated_ 10y ago
    I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reason I want out. This all reeks of bitterness and toy-throwing by those that voted remain. It's over. We are out. Accept it or feel free to move to a European country... I don't mind.
    - rndmio 10y ago
      Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.
      - Nursie 10y ago
        The EU has problems with democratic accountability. That we also have them at the UK level is irrelevant to me, we're not having a referendum on that (yet). Your definition of xenophobic is so wide that it would cover the very existence of nation states within the EU. I don't think all that many people share it.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        > talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic Then democracy itself is too > The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself MPs are elected > they don't impose on us because we are part of it Not for much longer.
    - collyw 10y ago
      It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    The Remain side has a far bigger and more systematic problem with classism than the Leave side has with racism.
  - dazc 10y ago
    The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      London you mean...
      - dazc 10y ago
        No, all the UK actually
        DanBC 10y ago
        Look at Gloucestershire. Overall it's not particularly diverse. One of the larger towns (Cheltenham, pop about 110,000) is 96% White British in last census. Nearby Gloucester is much more diverse - one street has over 70 different languages spoken as a first language, and the school in the UK (but outside London) with most different languages spoken as a first language is in Gloucester. So, while I believe the UK is diverse it's a bit more complicated than that.
        dazc 10y ago
        If you ask ten random people in the UK to tell you where Gloucestershire is I would be surprised if more than three of them would be able to?
        DanBC 10y ago
        They'd know it's roughly south west, near wales. But that makes your point stronger, no? That even in this small (by population, not geographical) rural county there's still a mix of not much diversity and lots of diversity.
        dazc 10y ago
  - lhnz 10y ago
    Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that there are not good, open, free-market reasons to leave the EU. [0] http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit [1] http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/european-union-critical-assessment http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bullet... [2] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
    - tt293 10y ago
      Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-regions.png http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...
      - ps4fanboy 10y ago
        You are linking education (specifically having a degree) with intelligence is there anything to correlate this assertion? It comes of as incredible classist, just because plumbers do not have degrees does not mean they are stupider than someone with a degree in interior design.
      - lhnz 10y ago
        My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them. You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which backed Brexit. Rather than hating them perhaps you could try to understand their struggles and feelings on how they have been betrayed by the establishment [0]? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-brit...
  - robhu 10y ago
    Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"
    - kuschku 10y ago
      That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.
      - ghgfhgfhn 10y ago
        Perhaps that is what it is saying. Perhaps people are unhappy with representative democracy and want to move actual democracy.
      - Gupie 10y ago
        Couldn't agree more, decisions about the Yorkshire should be taken in the Yorkshire: http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/ http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/
- deepvibrations 10y ago
  I agree with your principles, but I do think this may be an exception...With all the mis-information peddled by the media pre-vote and given the number of people who have already come out saying they didn't fully understand the implications of voting leave, I personally believe that another referendum wouldn't be the worst thing, especially given that the win was by such a small margin. What if we were to have a second referendum and the result came out 60/40 in favour of remain- would your opinion remain the same?
  - Nursie 10y ago
    I wonder how much of this is the media indulging its own bias, and how significant the 'bregret'* stuff really is. I really hope we don't find out how a second referendum goes, as I think it would paint the EU and westminster in a worse light, and put UKIP firmly into ascendancy. *I really hate all these portmanteaus...
    - cocotino 10y ago
      The media is working really hard with the bregret thing, the same they worked really hard making sure everybody would vote remain. It's sickening how they want to suppress the will of the majority.
      - andrewingram 10y ago
        Really? From what I saw, the news sources with the biggest circulation tended to be heavily biased towards leaving.
      - gmac 10y ago
        Right, I forgot, that was exactly what the Sun and the Mail were up to. :P
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    I wouldn't be so sure a re-run would go the way you expect. There was also a large amount of open lying and misinformation from the Remain side. To name just a few: Cameron saying "I will campaign for in or out depending on whether I get a good deal for Britain". Reality: he got nothing and then claimed leaving the EU would be morally wrong. Cameron saying "this isn't about me, I'll stay on no matter what". Reality: resigning the very next day, having known full well he'd do that if he lost yet he openly lied to the public about it. Osborne saying "there'll be a punishment budget". Reality: that has now mysteriously vanished. But I don't think any of that will really matter in a rerun anyway. The pro-remain side seems to think voters are spreadsheets that weigh up the output of yet more spreadsheets which pretend to represent the real world, and then make their decision based on that. In reality most Leave voters clocked ages ago that politicians were not trustworthy and made up their minds based on other factors. If the referendum is ignored then expect a lot of Remain voters in the regions to switch to Leave: it will be widely interpreted as the end of democracy itself if they don't.
pi-err 10y ago
> Oh, by the way, "The referendum was non-binding, it's advisory". True - though the gov white paper mentioned that it was, in effect, binding because ignoring its result would irreversibly damage representative democracy. Even if the UK were somehow to backtrack: they broke any faith and goodwill on EU side (not the entire EU but key members). Politically, the Tories have to rally Brexit - or they will get killed by UKIP in the next election run. The box is open. At some point in 10-20 years, a new agreement will probably bring the UK back to most of its EU membership. Until then, there's no way back.
- hjnilsson 10y ago
  The government can just ignore the vote after reelection. If they say "vote for us an we'll stay in the EU" and win. That's the way it'll be. In Sweden, several national referendums have been ignored by the government (shutting down nuclear power, switching to right hand traffic, new pension system). It has had no negative effect on either parties or politicians really. People are only angry as long as it stays in the public eye. The truth is. To carry out politics you need politicians, and the No-side in the EU question is made up of a clique of populists joined by mass media. Without broad support by most politicians in the UK, the actual act of leaving will never actually come to pass.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    "Vote for us an we'll give you the voice everyone else ignored" is going to make a compelling cry though, you have to admit. Refusing to leave at this point will make things worse, not better.
steve19 10y ago
"Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote" I have spent a significant portion of my life living in countries where I was not a citizen, paid taxes and was unable to vote. Just like there are millions of Europeans paying taxes in the USA and unable to vote. This applies to most countries and does not make them any less democratic. At the end of the day Democracy is a shit system. A really shitty system, but we keep it around because it is better than the other systems.
throwaway049 10y ago
Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...
- Unosolo 10y ago
  Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not. A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making. Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?
  - verbify 10y ago
    Irish people can vote in UK elections because of the Good Friday agreement - basically ensured that Republicans originally from Northern Ireland (and therefore had British citizenship) who resided in the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists from the Republic of Ireland who lived in the UK (I don't know how many of these there are) could vote in what they believed was their own country. It's a specific agreement that helped stop The Troubles. Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.
    - gsnedders 10y ago
      > Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs. I presume it's related to their historic status as British Subjects (which some of them will still hold, though it's been impossible to gain status as such since the 1980s), which would have granted them the right to vote in Westminster elections and referendums.
jaredklewis 10y ago
All fine points, but generally in democracy, the time to educate the voting public and raise issues like disenfranchisement is before the vote, not after. Obviously, the losing side of any politcal battle will always want a redo. And obviously the winners will always prefer to keep the results as they are. Letting the losers try again until they win is like a DOS attack. Btw, I totally agree though that leaving something like succession up to a simple majority is crazy. Seems 2/3 is more appropriate for big things like this, going to war, and what not.
- crusso 10y ago
  Did it require a 2/3 vote to join the EU?
  - Nursie 10y ago
    It certainly didn't for any of the major treaties setting up the EU - most were put in place by governments with nowhere near a 50% vote-share.
vixen99 10y ago
It depends on what you understand by citizenship. As non-Brits they don't have a long-term interest in the future of Britain. For instance, we can assume they will likely have family connections elsewhere. They can leave when they like. They are in the UK for what they can get out of it, as of now. That is not meant pejoratively. It is what I or anyone else would do. If we have the freedom to do so, we plot a life trajectory (including where to locate) with respect to our best interests. I wonder where do you get the 10% figure; how on earth would you know that in the three days since polling? It's difficult to know what to make of folk who given three months of intense EU/Out/In discussion across the land suddenly discover that they didn't think their vote mattered or that they couldn't make up their minds and tossed a coin. They need a lesson in how democracy works. It was expected that the pound would fall and markets react negatively in view of the immediate uncertainty. Aside from that, what's happened that would make someone say "I didn't know it would be like this"? Even Paul Krugman, a would-be remainer says " I’m finding myself less horrified by Brexit than one might have expected – in fact, less than I myself expected. The economic consequences will be bad, but not, I’d argue, as bad as many are claiming. The political consequences might be much more dire; but many of the bad things I fear would probably have happened even if Remain had won."
- jeeva 10y ago
  I guess my "Oh jeez, really?" thing for the weekend was this quote: > “I said to him, so where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?” Islam told Botting, without naming the MP specifically. > He said the pro-Leave Tory replied: “There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan.” > According to Islam, the MP then pointed toward the Houses of Parliament and said: “Number 10 should have had a plan”. https://twitter.com/PED7/status/747063871765086208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/PED7/status/747063871765086208?ref_src=t...
vixen99 10y ago
It depends on what you understand by citizenship. As non-Brits they don't have a long-term interest in the future of Britain. For instance, we can assume they will likely have family connections elsewhere. They can leave when they like. They are in the UK for what they can get out of it, as of now. That is not meant pejoratively. It is what I or anyone else would do. If we have the freedom to do so, we plot a life trajectory (including where to locate) with respect to our best interests. I wonder where do you get the 10% figure; how on earth would you know that in the three days since polling? It's difficult to know what to make of folk who given three months of intense EU/Out/In discussion across the land suddenly discover that they didn't think their vote mattered or that they couldn't make up their minds and tossed a coin. They need a lesson in how democracy works. It was expected that the pound would fall and markets react negatively in view of the immediate uncertainty. Aside from that, what's happened that would make someone say "I didn't know it would be like this"? Even Paul Krugman, a would-be remainer says " I’m finding myself less horrified by Brexit than one might have expected – in fact, less than I myself expected. The economic consequences will be bad, but not, I’d argue, as bad as many are claiming. The political consequences might be much more dire; but many of the bad things I fear would probably have happened even if Remain had won."

Nursie 10y ago

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has no bearing on its democratic legitimacy, nor on the potential fallout of ignoring the result.

antouank 10y ago
I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.
- Nursie 10y ago
  This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?
  - antouank 10y ago
    I just mentioned the facts after the result. Are they not? And I'm trying to say that they have such a big effect, that defending them is not, in the long-term, good thing for this society. I'm just sad that a minority is viewed falsely as a majority.
  - r0muald 10y ago
    Calling episodes of racism and xenophobia for what they are qualifies as "hate" towards those who voted Leave? The attack on the Polish cultural centre is "rhetoric"? The murder of Jo Cox is rhetoric? Feel offended, but at least don't try to paint yourself as subject of hate.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      The incidents you mention were awful and are not to be tolerated. We (as a nation) voted to leave the EU, not to allow this kind of hateful violence. But you know full well that the rhetoric I'm talking about, as exemplified by that post, is the attempt to paint everyone with any 'leave' symapthies as a racist.
      - r0muald 10y ago
        "Of course not all Leavers are racists. That would be a terrible thought. But all racists now think 52% of the population agree with them." https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801 https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?
    - Nursie 10y ago
      Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.
- _Understated_ 10y ago
  I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reason I want out. This all reeks of bitterness and toy-throwing by those that voted remain. It's over. We are out. Accept it or feel free to move to a European country... I don't mind.
  - rndmio 10y ago
    Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      The EU has problems with democratic accountability. That we also have them at the UK level is irrelevant to me, we're not having a referendum on that (yet). Your definition of xenophobic is so wide that it would cover the very existence of nation states within the EU. I don't think all that many people share it.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic Then democracy itself is too > The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself MPs are elected > they don't impose on us because we are part of it Not for much longer.
  - collyw 10y ago
    It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.
- sievebrain 10y ago
  The Remain side has a far bigger and more systematic problem with classism than the Leave side has with racism.
- dazc 10y ago
  The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    London you mean...
    - dazc 10y ago
      No, all the UK actually
      - DanBC 10y ago
        Look at Gloucestershire. Overall it's not particularly diverse. One of the larger towns (Cheltenham, pop about 110,000) is 96% White British in last census. Nearby Gloucester is much more diverse - one street has over 70 different languages spoken as a first language, and the school in the UK (but outside London) with most different languages spoken as a first language is in Gloucester. So, while I believe the UK is diverse it's a bit more complicated than that.
        dazc 10y ago
        If you ask ten random people in the UK to tell you where Gloucestershire is I would be surprised if more than three of them would be able to?
        DanBC 10y ago
        They'd know it's roughly south west, near wales. But that makes your point stronger, no? That even in this small (by population, not geographical) rural county there's still a mix of not much diversity and lots of diversity.
        dazc 10y ago
- lhnz 10y ago
  Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that there are not good, open, free-market reasons to leave the EU. [0] http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit http://www.hoover.org/research/cautious-yes-brexit [1] http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/european-union-critical-assessment http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bullet... [2] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution
  - tt293 10y ago
    Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-regions.png http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...
    - ps4fanboy 10y ago
      You are linking education (specifically having a degree) with intelligence is there anything to correlate this assertion? It comes of as incredible classist, just because plumbers do not have degrees does not mean they are stupider than someone with a degree in interior design.
    - lhnz 10y ago
      My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them. You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which backed Brexit. Rather than hating them perhaps you could try to understand their struggles and feelings on how they have been betrayed by the establishment [0]? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-brit...
- robhu 10y ago
  Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"
  - kuschku 10y ago
    That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.
    - ghgfhgfhn 10y ago
      Perhaps that is what it is saying. Perhaps people are unhappy with representative democracy and want to move actual democracy.
    - Gupie 10y ago
      Couldn't agree more, decisions about the Yorkshire should be taken in the Yorkshire: http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/ http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/
deepvibrations 10y ago
I agree with your principles, but I do think this may be an exception...With all the mis-information peddled by the media pre-vote and given the number of people who have already come out saying they didn't fully understand the implications of voting leave, I personally believe that another referendum wouldn't be the worst thing, especially given that the win was by such a small margin. What if we were to have a second referendum and the result came out 60/40 in favour of remain- would your opinion remain the same?
- Nursie 10y ago
  I wonder how much of this is the media indulging its own bias, and how significant the 'bregret'* stuff really is. I really hope we don't find out how a second referendum goes, as I think it would paint the EU and westminster in a worse light, and put UKIP firmly into ascendancy. *I really hate all these portmanteaus...
  - cocotino 10y ago
    The media is working really hard with the bregret thing, the same they worked really hard making sure everybody would vote remain. It's sickening how they want to suppress the will of the majority.
    - andrewingram 10y ago
      Really? From what I saw, the news sources with the biggest circulation tended to be heavily biased towards leaving.
    - gmac 10y ago
      Right, I forgot, that was exactly what the Sun and the Mail were up to. :P
- sievebrain 10y ago
  I wouldn't be so sure a re-run would go the way you expect. There was also a large amount of open lying and misinformation from the Remain side. To name just a few: Cameron saying "I will campaign for in or out depending on whether I get a good deal for Britain". Reality: he got nothing and then claimed leaving the EU would be morally wrong. Cameron saying "this isn't about me, I'll stay on no matter what". Reality: resigning the very next day, having known full well he'd do that if he lost yet he openly lied to the public about it. Osborne saying "there'll be a punishment budget". Reality: that has now mysteriously vanished. But I don't think any of that will really matter in a rerun anyway. The pro-remain side seems to think voters are spreadsheets that weigh up the output of yet more spreadsheets which pretend to represent the real world, and then make their decision based on that. In reality most Leave voters clocked ages ago that politicians were not trustworthy and made up their minds based on other factors. If the referendum is ignored then expect a lot of Remain voters in the regions to switch to Leave: it will be widely interpreted as the end of democracy itself if they don't.

pi-err 10y ago

> Oh, by the way, "The referendum was non-binding, it's advisory". True - though the gov white paper mentioned that it was, in effect, binding because ignoring its result would irreversibly damage representative democracy. Even if the UK were somehow to backtrack: they broke any faith and goodwill on EU side (not the entire EU but key members). Politically, the Tories have to rally Brexit - or they will get killed by UKIP in the next election run. The box is open. At some point in 10-20 years, a new agreement will probably bring the UK back to most of its EU membership. Until then, there's no way back.

hjnilsson 10y ago
The government can just ignore the vote after reelection. If they say "vote for us an we'll stay in the EU" and win. That's the way it'll be. In Sweden, several national referendums have been ignored by the government (shutting down nuclear power, switching to right hand traffic, new pension system). It has had no negative effect on either parties or politicians really. People are only angry as long as it stays in the public eye. The truth is. To carry out politics you need politicians, and the No-side in the EU question is made up of a clique of populists joined by mass media. Without broad support by most politicians in the UK, the actual act of leaving will never actually come to pass.
- Nursie 10y ago
  "Vote for us an we'll give you the voice everyone else ignored" is going to make a compelling cry though, you have to admit. Refusing to leave at this point will make things worse, not better.

steve19 10y ago

"Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote" I have spent a significant portion of my life living in countries where I was not a citizen, paid taxes and was unable to vote. Just like there are millions of Europeans paying taxes in the USA and unable to vote. This applies to most countries and does not make them any less democratic. At the end of the day Democracy is a shit system. A really shitty system, but we keep it around because it is better than the other systems.

throwaway049 10y ago

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

Unosolo 10y ago
Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not. A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making. Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?
- verbify 10y ago
  Irish people can vote in UK elections because of the Good Friday agreement - basically ensured that Republicans originally from Northern Ireland (and therefore had British citizenship) who resided in the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists from the Republic of Ireland who lived in the UK (I don't know how many of these there are) could vote in what they believed was their own country. It's a specific agreement that helped stop The Troubles. Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.
  - gsnedders 10y ago
    > Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs. I presume it's related to their historic status as British Subjects (which some of them will still hold, though it's been impossible to gain status as such since the 1980s), which would have granted them the right to vote in Westminster elections and referendums.

jaredklewis 10y ago

All fine points, but generally in democracy, the time to educate the voting public and raise issues like disenfranchisement is before the vote, not after. Obviously, the losing side of any politcal battle will always want a redo. And obviously the winners will always prefer to keep the results as they are. Letting the losers try again until they win is like a DOS attack. Btw, I totally agree though that leaving something like succession up to a simple majority is crazy. Seems 2/3 is more appropriate for big things like this, going to war, and what not.

crusso 10y ago
Did it require a 2/3 vote to join the EU?
- Nursie 10y ago
  It certainly didn't for any of the major treaties setting up the EU - most were put in place by governments with nowhere near a 50% vote-share.

vixen99 10y ago

It depends on what you understand by citizenship. As non-Brits they don't have a long-term interest in the future of Britain. For instance, we can assume they will likely have family connections elsewhere. They can leave when they like. They are in the UK for what they can get out of it, as of now. That is not meant pejoratively. It is what I or anyone else would do. If we have the freedom to do so, we plot a life trajectory (including where to locate) with respect to our best interests. I wonder where do you get the 10% figure; how on earth would you know that in the three days since polling? It's difficult to know what to make of folk who given three months of intense EU/Out/In discussion across the land suddenly discover that they didn't think their vote mattered or that they couldn't make up their minds and tossed a coin. They need a lesson in how democracy works. It was expected that the pound would fall and markets react negatively in view of the immediate uncertainty. Aside from that, what's happened that would make someone say "I didn't know it would be like this"? Even Paul Krugman, a would-be remainer says " I’m finding myself less horrified by Brexit than one might have expected – in fact, less than I myself expected. The economic consequences will be bad, but not, I’d argue, as bad as many are claiming. The political consequences might be much more dire; but many of the bad things I fear would probably have happened even if Remain had won."

jeeva 10y ago
I guess my "Oh jeez, really?" thing for the weekend was this quote: > “I said to him, so where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?” Islam told Botting, without naming the MP specifically. > He said the pro-Leave Tory replied: “There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan.” > According to Islam, the MP then pointed toward the Houses of Parliament and said: “Number 10 should have had a plan”. https://twitter.com/PED7/status/747063871765086208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/PED7/status/747063871765086208?ref_src=t...

vixen99 10y ago