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No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not

No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this. The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border. Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail out Scotland? Will there be Greece style terms? So with the debt, companies leaving, not getting much tax receipts. How will Scotland pay for the FREE tuition, FREE healthcare, FREE this and FREE that, they like to promise? Is the EU going to be sending them FREE monies? Finally and this is where I tend to laugh the most. Once Scotland joins Europe and the Euro. How is Scotland an independent state in Europe? How have Scottish people not realised this? Go look at Greece! Scotland won't be able to control her economy. The EU bureaucrats will not do what's in her best interests. They'll do what's in THEIR best interests! So what happens when Scotland no longer has control of her finances, can't pay for the FREE stuff. Oh and then slips into recession and the UK is doing better off? Yeah, that's the joke. Oh and the UK won't let Scotland use the pound. I can tell you that now!

ubernostrum 10y ago
The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. The consequences for leaving the EU were well-known and kicked in within hours of the votes being tallied last week, but didn't stop the English from voting to do it anyway. And if we're going to allow the English to be that reckless on the basis of a single simple-majority vote, I don't see why we oughtn't let the Scots do the same.
- cmdkeen 10y ago
  The consequences for Scotland leaving the UK are an order of magnitude worse, and that is if they were guaranteed admission to the EU on a roughly similar basis to to the UK's current status. In reality they would probably have to adopt the Euro and thus have even less control over fiscal policy which would mean dealing with the 9% budget deficit, higher than Greece's which would be political suicide.
rando444 10y ago
The notion that Scottish companies would move to England is absurd. Surely you must realize the difference (especially in size) between the EU and English marketplace.
learnstats2 10y ago
"the UK won't let Scotland use the pound" was an extremely effective argument that probably won the last referendum. But you're going to need a new one: the euro just became a lot more credible than the pound as a currency for Scotland.
- Nursie 10y ago
  There does remain the question of whether Scotland, which has no proven history of having any sort of independent economy, would come anywhere close to being an acfeptabke risk for the EU and eurozone to take on. I'm not claiming to have an answer one way or another there, but it seems a bit of a risk to just assume that.
  - learnstats2 10y ago
    Although I have no reason to believe that the EU wouldn't accept Scotland on this basis, a fresh accession might require the agreement of 27 countries. There was a question last time about whether Scotland would automatically inherit EU membership or would have to apply for accession. IIRC, the EU wouldn't answer the question directly because Westminster refused to ask them. I'm guessing Nicola Sturgeon might be keen for this question to be cleared up.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      I think a lot of people will be waiting for that information, it's likely to be pivotal.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Scottish leaders have been in intensive talks with EU recently. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629331 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629331 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-see... We knew all along that Scotland was strongly pro-EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35610623 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-3561... And that the only reason a bunch of people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK was because of promises about staying in EU.
matthewmacleod 10y ago
You are spreading many inaccuracies here, but we should take them one-by-one. No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. I suspect it's even more simple – Sturgeon thinks that Scotland should be part of the EU, is backed by a clear majority of voters, and will take all steps possible to try and keep the country in the EU. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this. Scotland currently has a parliament in which no single party has a majority. That's essentially as far from a one-party state as it's possible to get. You might call it a one-party state in the sense of representation as Westminster, but that's down to an outdated electoral system more than anything else. The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. That might have been the case (though I don't think it was) but it's clear that those consequences are likely to be substantially different now. The UK that existed at the time of the last referendum will no longer exist. Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border. I'm not sure there is any evidence of that at this point. Few companies said they would do that at the time of the last referendum, so it's difficult to see why this would have changed. Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail out Scotland? Will there be Greece style terms? The UK rescued the UK's banks – not 'Scottish banks'. These were banks that were Scottish in origin, but with most work conducted in the City of London, and which paid taxes to the UK treasury. It would be obviously preposterous to expect Scotland to bail out London-based banks, given that it does not receive the associated tax revenue. So with the debt, companies leaving, not getting much tax receipts. How will Scotland pay for the FREE tuition, FREE healthcare, FREE this and FREE that, they like to promise? Is the EU going to be sending them FREE monies? Your argument seems to presuppose that the Scottish economy will collapse, which seems unlikely. Maybe it will result in a tightening of budgets such that some things which are currently free at point of use will no longer be so. Finally and this is where I tend to laugh the most. Once Scotland joins Europe and the Euro. How is Scotland an independent state in Europe? How have Scottish people not realised this? Go look at Greece! People in Scotland are well aware of that. There is a trade-off of sovereignty for stability and economics; Scotland might be subject to EU law, but in exchange it gains access to the single market. It's possible to be both an independent state and agree to international treaties. Oh and the UK won't let Scotland use the pound. I can tell you that now! The UK has no say on who uses Sterling.
ck425 10y ago
"The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt." That's an extremely common fallacy. The banks were bailed out not by the countries they were based in but by the proportion of their wealth that belonged to citizens of each countries (roughly, it is slightly more complicated than that). Only a small proportion of the "Scottish Banks" wealth was actually that of Scottish citizens. The majority of it was English wealth along with a few other countries, therefore England would have had to bail out a sizeable chunk to avoid the economic ramifications of these "Scottish Banks" collapsing.
ck425 10y ago
"The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt." That's an extremely common fallacy. The banks were bailed out not by the countries they were based in but by the proportion of their wealth that belonged to citizens of each countries (roughly, it is slightly more complicated than that). Only a small proportion of the "Scottish Banks" wealth was actually that of Scottish citizens. The majority of it was English wealth along with a few other countries, therefore England would have had to bail out a sizeable chunk to avoid the economic ramifications of these "Scottish Banks" collapsing.

ubernostrum 10y ago

The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. The consequences for leaving the EU were well-known and kicked in within hours of the votes being tallied last week, but didn't stop the English from voting to do it anyway. And if we're going to allow the English to be that reckless on the basis of a single simple-majority vote, I don't see why we oughtn't let the Scots do the same.

cmdkeen 10y ago
The consequences for Scotland leaving the UK are an order of magnitude worse, and that is if they were guaranteed admission to the EU on a roughly similar basis to to the UK's current status. In reality they would probably have to adopt the Euro and thus have even less control over fiscal policy which would mean dealing with the 9% budget deficit, higher than Greece's which would be political suicide.

rando444 10y ago

The notion that Scottish companies would move to England is absurd. Surely you must realize the difference (especially in size) between the EU and English marketplace.

learnstats2 10y ago

"the UK won't let Scotland use the pound" was an extremely effective argument that probably won the last referendum. But you're going to need a new one: the euro just became a lot more credible than the pound as a currency for Scotland.

Nursie 10y ago
There does remain the question of whether Scotland, which has no proven history of having any sort of independent economy, would come anywhere close to being an acfeptabke risk for the EU and eurozone to take on. I'm not claiming to have an answer one way or another there, but it seems a bit of a risk to just assume that.
- learnstats2 10y ago
  Although I have no reason to believe that the EU wouldn't accept Scotland on this basis, a fresh accession might require the agreement of 27 countries. There was a question last time about whether Scotland would automatically inherit EU membership or would have to apply for accession. IIRC, the EU wouldn't answer the question directly because Westminster refused to ask them. I'm guessing Nicola Sturgeon might be keen for this question to be cleared up.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    I think a lot of people will be waiting for that information, it's likely to be pivotal.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Scottish leaders have been in intensive talks with EU recently. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629331 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629331 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-seeks-urgent-brussels-talks-to-protect-scotlands-eu-membership https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/sturgeon-see... We knew all along that Scotland was strongly pro-EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35610623 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-3561... And that the only reason a bunch of people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK was because of promises about staying in EU.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

You are spreading many inaccuracies here, but we should take them one-by-one. No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. I suspect it's even more simple – Sturgeon thinks that Scotland should be part of the EU, is backed by a clear majority of voters, and will take all steps possible to try and keep the country in the EU. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this. Scotland currently has a parliament in which no single party has a majority. That's essentially as far from a one-party state as it's possible to get. You might call it a one-party state in the sense of representation as Westminster, but that's down to an outdated electoral system more than anything else. The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. That might have been the case (though I don't think it was) but it's clear that those consequences are likely to be substantially different now. The UK that existed at the time of the last referendum will no longer exist. Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border. I'm not sure there is any evidence of that at this point. Few companies said they would do that at the time of the last referendum, so it's difficult to see why this would have changed. Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail out Scotland? Will there be Greece style terms? The UK rescued the UK's banks – not 'Scottish banks'. These were banks that were Scottish in origin, but with most work conducted in the City of London, and which paid taxes to the UK treasury. It would be obviously preposterous to expect Scotland to bail out London-based banks, given that it does not receive the associated tax revenue. So with the debt, companies leaving, not getting much tax receipts. How will Scotland pay for the FREE tuition, FREE healthcare, FREE this and FREE that, they like to promise? Is the EU going to be sending them FREE monies? Your argument seems to presuppose that the Scottish economy will collapse, which seems unlikely. Maybe it will result in a tightening of budgets such that some things which are currently free at point of use will no longer be so. Finally and this is where I tend to laugh the most. Once Scotland joins Europe and the Euro. How is Scotland an independent state in Europe? How have Scottish people not realised this? Go look at Greece! People in Scotland are well aware of that. There is a trade-off of sovereignty for stability and economics; Scotland might be subject to EU law, but in exchange it gains access to the single market. It's possible to be both an independent state and agree to international treaties. Oh and the UK won't let Scotland use the pound. I can tell you that now! The UK has no say on who uses Sterling.

ck425 10y ago

"The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt." That's an extremely common fallacy. The banks were bailed out not by the countries they were based in but by the proportion of their wealth that belonged to citizens of each countries (roughly, it is slightly more complicated than that). Only a small proportion of the "Scottish Banks" wealth was actually that of Scottish citizens. The majority of it was English wealth along with a few other countries, therefore England would have had to bail out a sizeable chunk to avoid the economic ramifications of these "Scottish Banks" collapsing.

ck425 10y ago