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Clarification: Americans confuse Indians between those from Bharat/India and Native Americans. Dots and feathers is a common way to differentiate between both.

by tn13 10y ago

Clarification: Americans confuse Indians between those from Bharat/India and Native Americans. Dots and feathers is a common way to differentiate between both. I am from India.

RP_Joe 10y ago
Are you offended by (dots)?
dalke 10y ago
I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. It feels pejorative as well. If it's ambiguous, I say "Indian (from India)" or "Indian (subcontinent)" vs. "Indian (Native American)". Or I'll just say "from India" or "Native American", and avoid that ambiguity. That said, even "Native American" is controversial. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controver... for full details. Plus, I think many in the US don't know about the bindi, so referring to "dot" in that context may not help as much as you, someone from India, may think. As to why it feels pejorative, here's are pictures of Native American vendors in Santa Fe. https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/palace_of_the_governors.html https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adent... . One is recent, another from almost 100 years ago. Here's are some more: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-program-of-the-palace-of-the-governors-santa-fe?select=oJ9Yt26Bqm1MiQn1YmB4Uw http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-progr... http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ . Do you see feathers? Other than decades-old stereotypes from mass media, why do you think "feather" is the appropriate term?
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  >I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. I am from the US, I have heard people say things like "I picked up some Indian artwork this weekend, dots not feathers." I've also been asked "dots or feathers?" when I was talking about something Indian. I've also been asked in gestures, pointing to the forehead to represent a bindi then saying "or" and covering and uncovering the mouth while making a noise to do that mock Indian battle cry (see the scene in Peter Pan if you are unfamiliar with it)(1). Its not super common (for obvious reasons) but I've heard to several times from several different people so its common enough in at least some parts of the United States. Being casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States. That being said, its impolite racially charged language thus very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication. (1) I am ashamed to admit that I did that while playing "cowboys and Indians" as a child before I knew better.
  - dalke 10y ago
    A Google Book search finds only a 2002 Weekly World News opinion piece by "Ed Anger" and a 2009 book "Stealing Ganymede: A Novel". There are ~150 hits in DDG for "Indian" plus any of the four combination of order and choice of {"and", "or", or "not"}. There are 94 hits in Google for "dots or feathers" and 120 "dots and feathers". This includes "polka dots and feathers." Almost every single one referring to people uses that phrase in a derogatory way. None of the 6 phrases exist in Google's n-grams. That makes it decidedly not common, at least in the written word. > Being casually racist in informal conversation ... ... is not appropriate for HN.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Correct, I never, ever, ever said it was appropriate, it is decidedly not. If you look up a couple posts I highlighted the problems with using it on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11985794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11985794). I don't expect that it would be in written word to often either. Point is its common enough that I've heard it several times over many years from several different people. Perhaps you don't talk to too many casually racist people or it is regional.
      - dalke 10y ago
        I see I was wrong. I found a better phrase to search in Google to find many more examples of existing use. One is the movie "Not a Feather, but a Dot", with a trailer at http://morristowngreen.com/2013/05/28/meet-director-of-movie-about-indian-american-experience-june-6-at-morristown-library/ http://morristowngreen.com/2013/05/28/meet-director-of-movie... and the movie site at http://www.notafeather.com http://www.notafeather.com . I still don't think it's common, though I agree it's not rare. I provided counter-evidence that my observations are not solely biased by the people I know nor the regions I've lived in. To flip your question around, perhaps you are in the one region of the US where people do that? The other part of my response was because I didn't like the wriggle room in your paragraph describing how being 'casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States' and that such uses are 'very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication.' HN is full of informal conversation. Is HN casual enough that it's one of the few places where this "thing" is appropriate? I don't think that's what you meant. I wanted to make a more firm statement which removes that possible interpretation.
- bane 10y ago
  American here, dots and feathers as in "Indian, dots not feathers" or the reverse, is pretty common in my neck of the woods.

by tn13 10y ago

Clarification: Americans confuse Indians between those from Bharat/India and Native Americans. Dots and feathers is a common way to differentiate between both. I am from India.

RP_Joe 10y ago

Are you offended by (dots)?

dalke 10y ago

I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. It feels pejorative as well. If it's ambiguous, I say "Indian (from India)" or "Indian (subcontinent)" vs. "Indian (Native American)". Or I'll just say "from India" or "Native American", and avoid that ambiguity. That said, even "Native American" is controversial. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controver... for full details. Plus, I think many in the US don't know about the bindi, so referring to "dot" in that context may not help as much as you, someone from India, may think. As to why it feels pejorative, here's are pictures of Native American vendors in Santa Fe. https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adentro/palace_of_the_governors.html https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/el_camino_real_de_tierra_adent... . One is recent, another from almost 100 years ago. Here's are some more: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-program-of-the-palace-of-the-governors-santa-fe?select=oJ9Yt26Bqm1MiQn1YmB4Uw http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/native-american-vendors-progr... http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ http://adorepics.com/santa-fe-indian-market/ . Do you see feathers? Other than decades-old stereotypes from mass media, why do you think "feather" is the appropriate term?

nommm-nommm 10y ago
>I am from the US. "Dots and feathers" is not a common way in the US. I am from the US, I have heard people say things like "I picked up some Indian artwork this weekend, dots not feathers." I've also been asked "dots or feathers?" when I was talking about something Indian. I've also been asked in gestures, pointing to the forehead to represent a bindi then saying "or" and covering and uncovering the mouth while making a noise to do that mock Indian battle cry (see the scene in Peter Pan if you are unfamiliar with it)(1). Its not super common (for obvious reasons) but I've heard to several times from several different people so its common enough in at least some parts of the United States. Being casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States. That being said, its impolite racially charged language thus very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication. (1) I am ashamed to admit that I did that while playing "cowboys and Indians" as a child before I knew better.
- dalke 10y ago
  A Google Book search finds only a 2002 Weekly World News opinion piece by "Ed Anger" and a 2009 book "Stealing Ganymede: A Novel". There are ~150 hits in DDG for "Indian" plus any of the four combination of order and choice of {"and", "or", or "not"}. There are 94 hits in Google for "dots or feathers" and 120 "dots and feathers". This includes "polka dots and feathers." Almost every single one referring to people uses that phrase in a derogatory way. None of the 6 phrases exist in Google's n-grams. That makes it decidedly not common, at least in the written word. > Being casually racist in informal conversation ... ... is not appropriate for HN.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Correct, I never, ever, ever said it was appropriate, it is decidedly not. If you look up a couple posts I highlighted the problems with using it on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11985794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11985794). I don't expect that it would be in written word to often either. Point is its common enough that I've heard it several times over many years from several different people. Perhaps you don't talk to too many casually racist people or it is regional.
    - dalke 10y ago
      I see I was wrong. I found a better phrase to search in Google to find many more examples of existing use. One is the movie "Not a Feather, but a Dot", with a trailer at http://morristowngreen.com/2013/05/28/meet-director-of-movie-about-indian-american-experience-june-6-at-morristown-library/ http://morristowngreen.com/2013/05/28/meet-director-of-movie... and the movie site at http://www.notafeather.com http://www.notafeather.com . I still don't think it's common, though I agree it's not rare. I provided counter-evidence that my observations are not solely biased by the people I know nor the regions I've lived in. To flip your question around, perhaps you are in the one region of the US where people do that? The other part of my response was because I didn't like the wriggle room in your paragraph describing how being 'casually racist in informal conversation is still a "thing" in the United States' and that such uses are 'very inappropriate in most cases and should be avoided especially in formal communication.' HN is full of informal conversation. Is HN casual enough that it's one of the few places where this "thing" is appropriate? I don't think that's what you meant. I wanted to make a more firm statement which removes that possible interpretation.
bane 10y ago
American here, dots and feathers as in "Indian, dots not feathers" or the reverse, is pretty common in my neck of the woods.