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As someone living in the Netherlands, let me place a few sidenotes next to the section about it: - The 88% poll appears to be conducted amongst (online) Telegr

As someone living in the Netherlands, let me place a few sidenotes next to the section about it: - The 88% poll appears to be conducted amongst (online) Telegraaf readers (here is an online version: http://www.telegraaf.nl/watuzegt/25920298/__Britten_moeten_in_EU_blijven__.html http://www.telegraaf.nl/watuzegt/25920298/__Britten_moeten_i...) which is a bit comparable to the British 'Daily Mail'.. It's very anti-EU, and while it definitely has a large number of readers, the 88% is not at all representative of the Dutch population. - The Ukraine referendum is mentioned, specifically: "The agreement itself is not that critical but the vote was widely used as a vote on the EU itself. It went against the EU by 61% to 32%, albeit on low turnout of only 32%.". The low turnout is relevant, a lot of people decided to strategically not vote in order to signal their dislike for the referendum itself. Although the minimum turnout (30%) was barely reached, the fact that this turnout was so low - combined with the fact that the anti-EU parties implicitly marketed it as an anti-EU vote - signals to me that much fewer people would vote against the EU in a referendum similar to the British one. There is certainly a lot of anti-EU sentiment, but this article does appear to cherry pick its sources.

solidangle 10y ago
Dutchie here. More sidenotes: > It makes a bit more sense when you realise that the man doesn’t actually like democracy Why does this mean he doesn't like democracy? He doesn't like direct democracy, but he loves our indirect democracy. I don't see the need for a referendum in the Netherlands, the next parliamentary election is coming up soon and if people want to leave the EU they can vote for the Socialist Party or the Party for Freedom, both want to leave the EU. > The Dutch have a lot to lose from Brussels forcing a UK/NL trade war on them. We have a lot more to lose from Brussels forcing a NL/DE trade war, if we decide to leave the EU. Economically we're practically the 17th Bundesland of Germany. > He’s also survived a prosecution for “inciting hatred” (he was found not guilty). Geert Wilders is facing more prosecution for asking his followers whether they wanted more or less Moroccans in The Netherlands, after which they chanted "Less! Less! Less!".
- mike_hearn 10y ago
  Thanks to both of you for your insights. It is always difficult to interpret foreign politics. The basic assumption of democracy is that people can make good decisions. It must be so even in indirect democracy because otherwise how are voters meant to judge the track record of their existing politicians or the manifestos of new ones? You can't argue on one hand that people are too dumb to understand the issues and on the other that people should select representatives that do because those representatives (a) come from the existing population and (b) aren't supposed to be elected on the quality of their smile but rather their policies. I'm sure Mark Rutte believes he is a democrat, whilst simultaneously ignoring referendums and pretending nobody wants them. I think that's a nonsensical position. The second Wilders prosecution is interesting. Whether one likes his position or not is irrelevant, it was political speech. If the Dutch courts decide to jail (?) the countries most popular politician for talking politics, well, I would not be in .NL when that happens ... sounds like the kind of thing that can spark civil unrest. > We have a lot more to lose from Brussels forcing a NL/DE trade war, if we decide to leave the EU Yeah, but at that point Brussels would be fighting a trade war on two fronts. How much tolerance for conscription into a fight for the power of the EU elites do the ordinary people in Europe have? The Czech Republic is already calling for the resignation of Juncker, I see. Things look volatile.

solidangle 10y ago

Dutchie here. More sidenotes: > It makes a bit more sense when you realise that the man doesn’t actually like democracy Why does this mean he doesn't like democracy? He doesn't like direct democracy, but he loves our indirect democracy. I don't see the need for a referendum in the Netherlands, the next parliamentary election is coming up soon and if people want to leave the EU they can vote for the Socialist Party or the Party for Freedom, both want to leave the EU. > The Dutch have a lot to lose from Brussels forcing a UK/NL trade war on them. We have a lot more to lose from Brussels forcing a NL/DE trade war, if we decide to leave the EU. Economically we're practically the 17th Bundesland of Germany. > He’s also survived a prosecution for “inciting hatred” (he was found not guilty). Geert Wilders is facing more prosecution for asking his followers whether they wanted more or less Moroccans in The Netherlands, after which they chanted "Less! Less! Less!".

mike_hearn 10y ago
Thanks to both of you for your insights. It is always difficult to interpret foreign politics. The basic assumption of democracy is that people can make good decisions. It must be so even in indirect democracy because otherwise how are voters meant to judge the track record of their existing politicians or the manifestos of new ones? You can't argue on one hand that people are too dumb to understand the issues and on the other that people should select representatives that do because those representatives (a) come from the existing population and (b) aren't supposed to be elected on the quality of their smile but rather their policies. I'm sure Mark Rutte believes he is a democrat, whilst simultaneously ignoring referendums and pretending nobody wants them. I think that's a nonsensical position. The second Wilders prosecution is interesting. Whether one likes his position or not is irrelevant, it was political speech. If the Dutch courts decide to jail (?) the countries most popular politician for talking politics, well, I would not be in .NL when that happens ... sounds like the kind of thing that can spark civil unrest. > We have a lot more to lose from Brussels forcing a NL/DE trade war, if we decide to leave the EU Yeah, but at that point Brussels would be fighting a trade war on two fronts. How much tolerance for conscription into a fight for the power of the EU elites do the ordinary people in Europe have? The Czech Republic is already calling for the resignation of Juncker, I see. Things look volatile.