5 ms·

Yep. Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". IMHO, Europeans need to act together on a personal level. If pe

Yep. Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". IMHO, Europeans need to act together on a personal level. If people forget about "French", "German", "Italian", "Greek", etc. in their minds for a while, this union will be a huge benefit for everyone. This will probably give a better european parliament which should realize the problems and act as one. At this point most of the countries think for themselves, because of the pressure of populist ( actually that's why Cameron did this referendum, right? ).

Pamar 10y ago
Honest question: are you American? I ask because while I may agree in principle with your ideas I would like to stress that it's a bit difficult, on a personal level, to go over considering yourself French, Greek or whatever when your thoughts are framed in a language which is Greek or French or whatever. Take citizens from any two random US states: they still have more in common than people from two different cities in Belgium, just depending on which language is in the majority in the area.
- Udo_Schmitz 10y ago
  Doesn’t the choice of English in your example weaken your argument somewhat?
  - Pamar 10y ago
    I am writing this from Rostock, Germany, but I am not German. I am Italian. My relative fluency in English is the exception in Italy and in Rostock, too (moved here two years ago so I think I can say something on this matter). In other words if you think that every citizen in UE has the same command of English (and the same propensity to think globally, assuming I have any and it is related to English) you are wrong.
    - Udo_Schmitz 10y ago
      You misunderstood. I was hinting at USA, Canada, UK etc. being different nations though they share the same language. Let’s change one of your sentences a little bit: “Take citizens from London,UK and Austin,TX: they still have more in common than people from two different cities in Belgium, just depending on which language is in the majority in the area.” Would this still hold? I’d say no. I am German and consider myself as European if not a world citizen. Coming from Bremen in northern Germany I have more in common with folks in Sønderborg or Groningen compared to Vienna or Zurich. More often than not Nations are arbitrary.
- drinchev 10y ago
  If I have to continue the rhetoric of my original comment I would say I'm european. I was born in Bulgaria, currently living in Berlin, doing IT. I think the culture is indeed different between the member-states, but not so hard to overcome if you are acting together and vote.
  - Pamar 10y ago
    I suppose someone remained in Bulgaria to tend the fields, repair the roads, work in the industries and so on. They of course have political opinions, watch TV and vote. But they - I suppose - lack the kind of experiences you had in Berlin. So you either take off their voting rights (UE Commission would not mind at all, I suppose) or you have to accept that USE is not gonna work.
  - mamon 10y ago
    That's the problem: people that would say "I'm European" are extremly hard to find, they are just insignificant minority. Most of us feel Polish, Italian, Greek, etc. as each of those nations has over 1000 of years of historical background, cultural differencies, not to mention different languages. And yet EU officials try to merge Europe in a single country. To be honest, I think that Europe (and, by extension, the whole world) will unite one day. With modern communications and transportation people from different countries have far more intense contact than ever before and that will inevitably lead to blending into single community. The problem is that this process must take some time, and by "some time" I mean "centuries", and EU officials try to speed it up to few decades.
tomp 10y ago
> Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". We've been trying to get an answer to the second question, "How to make EU better", for almost 10 years now. Unfortunately, every time the EU has an opportunity to change, the answer the Eurocrats give is the same: "Let's keep pretending everything is fine." I'm guessing it was last summer that they managed to convince the EU cannot change (from within) with their (mis-)treatment of Greece.
- calgoo 10y ago
  As a Swede living in Spain for over 20 years, I feel it here as well. The way that the Southern countries where treated by Germany and the central banks where horrible. Greece got hit the hardest, but there where a lot of rules and policies that where forced on several countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland). I live in Spain, but am all for leaving the Euro and the EU. I saw how the loans etc where abused with very high interest rates etc. Here in Spain, the bailout money for the banks is not being repaid by the banks, the money is repaid by the people (This is more local legal issues where the rumor us that the political parties owe the banks over 100M Euros and if they did not agree the banks would come asking for their money back). However, all of these things together have created a very strong feeling of not knowing our futures, and not having any control over it. I can say that Merkel is a very hated person over here, as she is seen as the leader of the EU, and the one who was setting all the rules that was destroying rights that people here have been fighting for during the last 40 years. There are a lot of issues with the EU, and at this point its getting harder to find solutions for the issues at hand. If we wanted to save it, there would be some very big reforms i think. Starting with a big restructuring of the banking systems. You can not expect the different regions of Europe to work in the same way, it never has, and never will. Until this is accepted, we will keep on seeing the same results: Things are fine while the money flows, but once it stops, everything falls apart. You could get away with grouping "similar" countries into regions: such as the Scandinavian Union (cant remember the name). Another example from experience is for example Spain + Portugal + Italy + Andorra and maybe France. These countries work in similar ways and are very culturally alike.
- pfg 10y ago
  > Unfortunately, every time the EU has an opportunity to change, the answer the Eurocrats give is the same: "Let's keep pretending everything is fine." But is it really the Eurocrats who are blocking progress? It seems to me like most of the blame should go to the European Council. Whenever I see the Parliament (or really anyone) push for meaningful reform, it gets blocked by the Council. Instead of blaming our national politicians for their failure to push for (or even allow) reform in the Council, we keep electing them and blame the EU for their failure.
logingone 10y ago
"If people forget about "French", "German", "Italian", "Greek", etc" Isn't that the underlying idea of the EU - we're all the same, all in it together, etc. I think this is exactly what has gone wrong - head in the sand regarding differences. Everyone likes their own culture, hence population clustering and ghettoisation. On the contrary, I think the differences need to be acknowledged, and compromises allowed to let people manage as much of their own affairs in their own way as possible. People can't complain about the EU if the EU isn't forcing anything upon them.
crusso 10y ago
Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". Sometimes, the best way to force change is for one party to walk away from the table and force a reset. I'm amazed at how the Brexit is being cast as the end of History itself. Life will go on. Trade, travel, immigration, other treaties will come into being - probably much along the same lines as what was working directly with the EU. Perhaps the EU will undergo some fundamental changes that will make rejoining look more attractive to the UK.

Pamar 10y ago

Honest question: are you American? I ask because while I may agree in principle with your ideas I would like to stress that it's a bit difficult, on a personal level, to go over considering yourself French, Greek or whatever when your thoughts are framed in a language which is Greek or French or whatever. Take citizens from any two random US states: they still have more in common than people from two different cities in Belgium, just depending on which language is in the majority in the area.

Udo_Schmitz 10y ago
Doesn’t the choice of English in your example weaken your argument somewhat?
- Pamar 10y ago
  I am writing this from Rostock, Germany, but I am not German. I am Italian. My relative fluency in English is the exception in Italy and in Rostock, too (moved here two years ago so I think I can say something on this matter). In other words if you think that every citizen in UE has the same command of English (and the same propensity to think globally, assuming I have any and it is related to English) you are wrong.
  - Udo_Schmitz 10y ago
    You misunderstood. I was hinting at USA, Canada, UK etc. being different nations though they share the same language. Let’s change one of your sentences a little bit: “Take citizens from London,UK and Austin,TX: they still have more in common than people from two different cities in Belgium, just depending on which language is in the majority in the area.” Would this still hold? I’d say no. I am German and consider myself as European if not a world citizen. Coming from Bremen in northern Germany I have more in common with folks in Sønderborg or Groningen compared to Vienna or Zurich. More often than not Nations are arbitrary.
drinchev 10y ago
If I have to continue the rhetoric of my original comment I would say I'm european. I was born in Bulgaria, currently living in Berlin, doing IT. I think the culture is indeed different between the member-states, but not so hard to overcome if you are acting together and vote.
- Pamar 10y ago
  I suppose someone remained in Bulgaria to tend the fields, repair the roads, work in the industries and so on. They of course have political opinions, watch TV and vote. But they - I suppose - lack the kind of experiences you had in Berlin. So you either take off their voting rights (UE Commission would not mind at all, I suppose) or you have to accept that USE is not gonna work.
- mamon 10y ago
  That's the problem: people that would say "I'm European" are extremly hard to find, they are just insignificant minority. Most of us feel Polish, Italian, Greek, etc. as each of those nations has over 1000 of years of historical background, cultural differencies, not to mention different languages. And yet EU officials try to merge Europe in a single country. To be honest, I think that Europe (and, by extension, the whole world) will unite one day. With modern communications and transportation people from different countries have far more intense contact than ever before and that will inevitably lead to blending into single community. The problem is that this process must take some time, and by "some time" I mean "centuries", and EU officials try to speed it up to few decades.

tomp 10y ago

> Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". We've been trying to get an answer to the second question, "How to make EU better", for almost 10 years now. Unfortunately, every time the EU has an opportunity to change, the answer the Eurocrats give is the same: "Let's keep pretending everything is fine." I'm guessing it was last summer that they managed to convince the EU cannot change (from within) with their (mis-)treatment of Greece.

calgoo 10y ago
As a Swede living in Spain for over 20 years, I feel it here as well. The way that the Southern countries where treated by Germany and the central banks where horrible. Greece got hit the hardest, but there where a lot of rules and policies that where forced on several countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland). I live in Spain, but am all for leaving the Euro and the EU. I saw how the loans etc where abused with very high interest rates etc. Here in Spain, the bailout money for the banks is not being repaid by the banks, the money is repaid by the people (This is more local legal issues where the rumor us that the political parties owe the banks over 100M Euros and if they did not agree the banks would come asking for their money back). However, all of these things together have created a very strong feeling of not knowing our futures, and not having any control over it. I can say that Merkel is a very hated person over here, as she is seen as the leader of the EU, and the one who was setting all the rules that was destroying rights that people here have been fighting for during the last 40 years. There are a lot of issues with the EU, and at this point its getting harder to find solutions for the issues at hand. If we wanted to save it, there would be some very big reforms i think. Starting with a big restructuring of the banking systems. You can not expect the different regions of Europe to work in the same way, it never has, and never will. Until this is accepted, we will keep on seeing the same results: Things are fine while the money flows, but once it stops, everything falls apart. You could get away with grouping "similar" countries into regions: such as the Scandinavian Union (cant remember the name). Another example from experience is for example Spain + Portugal + Italy + Andorra and maybe France. These countries work in similar ways and are very culturally alike.
pfg 10y ago
> Unfortunately, every time the EU has an opportunity to change, the answer the Eurocrats give is the same: "Let's keep pretending everything is fine." But is it really the Eurocrats who are blocking progress? It seems to me like most of the blame should go to the European Council. Whenever I see the Parliament (or really anyone) push for meaningful reform, it gets blocked by the Council. Instead of blaming our national politicians for their failure to push for (or even allow) reform in the Council, we keep electing them and blame the EU for their failure.

logingone 10y ago

"If people forget about "French", "German", "Italian", "Greek", etc" Isn't that the underlying idea of the EU - we're all the same, all in it together, etc. I think this is exactly what has gone wrong - head in the sand regarding differences. Everyone likes their own culture, hence population clustering and ghettoisation. On the contrary, I think the differences need to be acknowledged, and compromises allowed to let people manage as much of their own affairs in their own way as possible. People can't complain about the EU if the EU isn't forcing anything upon them.

crusso 10y ago

Sadly the question is boiled down to "In or out of EU" instead of "How to make EU better". Sometimes, the best way to force change is for one party to walk away from the table and force a reset. I'm amazed at how the Brexit is being cast as the end of History itself. Life will go on. Trade, travel, immigration, other treaties will come into being - probably much along the same lines as what was working directly with the EU. Perhaps the EU will undergo some fundamental changes that will make rejoining look more attractive to the UK.