3 ms·

This is empirically wrong. Soy contains phytoestrogens which have no effect on the human endocrine system. You are more likely to become "feminized" by consumin

This is empirically wrong. Soy contains phytoestrogens which have no effect on the human endocrine system. You are more likely to become "feminized" by consuming cow's milk, which contains mammalian estrogen.

mkolodny 10y ago
I'd love for that to be true, but the research I linked to says otherwise. If you have research you could point me to that supports what you're saying I'd be happy to read it.
- torgoguys 10y ago
  >I'd love for that to be true, but the research I linked to says otherwise. Source 1 is not "research." It is case reporting. Source 2: While I admit I didn't read the whole thing (merely quickly went through the intro and conclusion plus a couple of other key paragraphs), it sounded like they were talking about setting levels of supplementation beyond normal dietary intake, right? If correct, that's at 75mg plus normal Japanese intake (which is higher than standard US intake, I believe). I'm happy to be corrected if I misunderstood something in my quick skimming. Plus, as is the case with most of these guidelines, especially with initial stabs at setting limits, they acknowledge that this threshold they set is conservative. The real best guess at a safe level would be higher--even according to them--because it is their job to be artificially conservative.
- supernintendo 10y ago
  Disclaimer: I'm a vegan. You only linked to one published research article which explicitly states the "evidence does not support the positive effect of soy products on endocrine function". This contradicts your argument. But sure. I'll link you to several articles [1][2][3][4][5] which argue that there is currently insufficient evidence for the effect of phytoestrogens on male testosterone levels. Further, the suggestion that phytoestrogens have the same effect as human sex hormones on the human endocrine system is not supported by research. While soy isoflavones do bind to estrogen receptors within the human body, this interaction is weak (as is the expression of these hormones) [6]. Not all estrogens are created equal. For example, phytoestrogens have been associated with a lower incidence of breast cancer whereas the opposite effect is observed with synthetic estrogens [7]. It is also important to note that phytoestrogens are found in literally hundreds of plant foods including apples, berries, carrots, wheat, rice, beans and lentils, oats, barley, and the list goes on. Yet, a study of 696 men concluded that vegans had 13% higher testosterone concentration than meat-eaters [8]. Finally, don't drink Soylent. You can get all of the nutrients you need from a whole foods, plant-based diet (sans B12) for much cheaper and it won't taste like shit. [1] http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/10/3/179.full http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/10/3/179.full [2] http://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle.fullcontentlink:pdfeventlink/$002fj$002fjpem.2011.24.issue-9-10$002fjpem.2011.271$002fjpem.2011.271.pdf?t:ac=j$002fjpem.2011.24.issue-9-10$002fjpem.2011.271$002fjpem.2011.271.xml http://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle.fullcontentlink:pdfe... [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106 [4] http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstr... [5] http://www.clinsci.org/content/100/6/613 http://www.clinsci.org/content/100/6/613 [6] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11305594 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11305594 [7] http://www.jbc.org/content/276/21/17808.full http://www.jbc.org/content/276/21/17808.full [8] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6...

mkolodny 10y ago

I'd love for that to be true, but the research I linked to says otherwise. If you have research you could point me to that supports what you're saying I'd be happy to read it.

torgoguys 10y ago
>I'd love for that to be true, but the research I linked to says otherwise. Source 1 is not "research." It is case reporting. Source 2: While I admit I didn't read the whole thing (merely quickly went through the intro and conclusion plus a couple of other key paragraphs), it sounded like they were talking about setting levels of supplementation beyond normal dietary intake, right? If correct, that's at 75mg plus normal Japanese intake (which is higher than standard US intake, I believe). I'm happy to be corrected if I misunderstood something in my quick skimming. Plus, as is the case with most of these guidelines, especially with initial stabs at setting limits, they acknowledge that this threshold they set is conservative. The real best guess at a safe level would be higher--even according to them--because it is their job to be artificially conservative.
supernintendo 10y ago
Disclaimer: I'm a vegan. You only linked to one published research article which explicitly states the "evidence does not support the positive effect of soy products on endocrine function". This contradicts your argument. But sure. I'll link you to several articles [1][2][3][4][5] which argue that there is currently insufficient evidence for the effect of phytoestrogens on male testosterone levels. Further, the suggestion that phytoestrogens have the same effect as human sex hormones on the human endocrine system is not supported by research. While soy isoflavones do bind to estrogen receptors within the human body, this interaction is weak (as is the expression of these hormones) [6]. Not all estrogens are created equal. For example, phytoestrogens have been associated with a lower incidence of breast cancer whereas the opposite effect is observed with synthetic estrogens [7]. It is also important to note that phytoestrogens are found in literally hundreds of plant foods including apples, berries, carrots, wheat, rice, beans and lentils, oats, barley, and the list goes on. Yet, a study of 696 men concluded that vegans had 13% higher testosterone concentration than meat-eaters [8]. Finally, don't drink Soylent. You can get all of the nutrients you need from a whole foods, plant-based diet (sans B12) for much cheaper and it won't taste like shit. [1] http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/10/3/179.full http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/10/3/179.full [2] http://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle.fullcontentlink:pdfeventlink/$002fj$002fjpem.2011.24.issue-9-10$002fjpem.2011.271$002fjpem.2011.271.pdf?t:ac=j$002fjpem.2011.24.issue-9-10$002fjpem.2011.271$002fjpem.2011.271.xml http://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle.fullcontentlink:pdfe... [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106 [4] http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstr... [5] http://www.clinsci.org/content/100/6/613 http://www.clinsci.org/content/100/6/613 [6] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11305594 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11305594 [7] http://www.jbc.org/content/276/21/17808.full http://www.jbc.org/content/276/21/17808.full [8] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6...