4 ms·

> when the US was founded and for much of its history When the US was founded and for much of its history, women couldn't vote. And this was the intention of t

by maratd 10y ago

> when the US was founded and for much of its history When the US was founded and for much of its history, women couldn't vote. And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. You judge a political entity by its current state. They can vote now. And now, you elect your Senators directly. You also elect your President directly, albeit within the confines of your state. > Like the US, the EU will evolve I disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. > the EU members are elected by the people's representatives, which is hardly no control or will of the people. Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. Nobody is screaming dictatorship here, but it really isn't the same thing.

gnaritas 10y ago
> And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. It was relevant to the next point made (not the founders intentions), that everything evolves even the U.S. > disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. It will, because nothing stays static, every generation has their own views about issues and all societies continually evolve, so yes, there is a guarantee of this. > Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. They're effectively the same thing and it's what elected representatives are for. You can't claim you don't have a say in the people selected when you elect the selectors.
- maratd 10y ago
  > It will, because nothing stays static I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. > They're effectively the same thing Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message.
  - gnaritas 10y ago
    > I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. Things don't always anything, but history shows over time societies are in general getting better and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the EU will as well. > Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message. One layer, i.e. representatives, is standard fair for how most governments operate and no one complains they don't have any representation. It's unrealistic to accept only direct democracy as meaningful.

by maratd 10y ago

gnaritas 10y ago

> And this was the intention of the founders. And it's irrelevant. It was relevant to the next point made (not the founders intentions), that everything evolves even the U.S. > disagree with you here, there is no guarantee of this. It may, it may not. It will, because nothing stays static, every generation has their own views about issues and all societies continually evolve, so yes, there is a guarantee of this. > Selection is very different from election, even if done by those who were elected. They're effectively the same thing and it's what elected representatives are for. You can't claim you don't have a say in the people selected when you elect the selectors.

maratd 10y ago
> It will, because nothing stays static I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. > They're effectively the same thing Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  > I agree with you here, but the insinuation was that it would evolve toward something better. Things don't always get better. History has borne this out. Things don't always anything, but history shows over time societies are in general getting better and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the EU will as well. > Disagree. You're playing broken telephone. After inserting enough people in between the original vote and the final appointee... you get a completely different message. One layer, i.e. representatives, is standard fair for how most governments operate and no one complains they don't have any representation. It's unrealistic to accept only direct democracy as meaningful.