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> You get to vote for zero in the EU. The European Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens, with the UK getting 73 seats. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia

by scribu 10y ago

> You get to vote for zero in the EU. The European Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens, with the UK getting 73 seats. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

maratd 10y ago
I'll revise my previous statement to "You get to vote for 1/3 in the EU." I will note that this legislative body has no capacity to actually introduce legislation, as noted in the very article you quoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislative_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislativ...
- tremon 10y ago
  Make that 2/3 please. I assume that with your 1/3 you are referring to the European Parliament, and the other two you are considering are the European Commission and the Council of the EU, right? But the latter is chosen directly, because it is composed of the ministers of the respective member states. So of the three, only the Commission is appointed instead of elected.
  - maratd 10y ago
    If you really want to quibble about the fraction, I can revise it to 2/7. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European... Of those, only the parliament is directly elected. The council consists of elected officials who are automatically appointed and the presidency rotates. While that isn't necessarily a bad scheme, it isn't exactly democratic ... more like sequential?
    - tremon 10y ago
      Nope, still wrong. If you want to count all the institutions, it is 3/7: the European Parliament, the European Council, and the Council of the EU. And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected.
      - maratd 10y ago
        > Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected. And this causes much strife and conflict. > And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? What I am suggesting is that democracy is a release. As a citizen of the EU, you end up voting for a tiny fraction of those in power. Tiny. Even if I accept your fraction of 3/7 ... keep in mind that out of those for the UK, you get to elect 10% at best of those institutions. 3/7 * 10% = 4% That's a tiny number. And because the presidency rotates, 90% of the time the figurehead is someone you didn't even have a chance to vote for or against. That's a horrible feeling. That feeling is amplified if things are happening that you don't like. You blame that lack of control. Even if you lose the election, at least you had a voice. In the US, everyone has a chance to vote for or against the president, 100% of the time. Contrary to popular opinion, the presidency in the US is extremely limited and he can be overruled by the legislature or the supreme court at any time. And of course, in the legislature, any one citizen can only vote for a tiny fraction ... but because every citizen votes for the president, they feel they have some semblance of control over the system. If the desire is to turn the EU into a federal system like the US, then you need EU-wide elections where every citizen has the same set of choices. That will make them feel like they have a stake in the government. It would be a release. At that point the conversation would change from do I leave or do I stay, to how do I empower the guy I voted for.

by scribu 10y ago

maratd 10y ago

I'll revise my previous statement to "You get to vote for 1/3 in the EU." I will note that this legislative body has no capacity to actually introduce legislation, as noted in the very article you quoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislative_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislativ...

tremon 10y ago
Make that 2/3 please. I assume that with your 1/3 you are referring to the European Parliament, and the other two you are considering are the European Commission and the Council of the EU, right? But the latter is chosen directly, because it is composed of the ministers of the respective member states. So of the three, only the Commission is appointed instead of elected.
- maratd 10y ago
  If you really want to quibble about the fraction, I can revise it to 2/7. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European... Of those, only the parliament is directly elected. The council consists of elected officials who are automatically appointed and the presidency rotates. While that isn't necessarily a bad scheme, it isn't exactly democratic ... more like sequential?
  - tremon 10y ago
    Nope, still wrong. If you want to count all the institutions, it is 3/7: the European Parliament, the European Council, and the Council of the EU. And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected.
    - maratd 10y ago
      > Even in the US, the much-vaunted example, Supreme Court judges and the Federal Reserve chairman are appointed, not elected. And this causes much strife and conflict. > And are you really suggesting that people in the UK and in the rest of the world really do elect their judges, treasury officers, and accountants? What I am suggesting is that democracy is a release. As a citizen of the EU, you end up voting for a tiny fraction of those in power. Tiny. Even if I accept your fraction of 3/7 ... keep in mind that out of those for the UK, you get to elect 10% at best of those institutions. 3/7 * 10% = 4% That's a tiny number. And because the presidency rotates, 90% of the time the figurehead is someone you didn't even have a chance to vote for or against. That's a horrible feeling. That feeling is amplified if things are happening that you don't like. You blame that lack of control. Even if you lose the election, at least you had a voice. In the US, everyone has a chance to vote for or against the president, 100% of the time. Contrary to popular opinion, the presidency in the US is extremely limited and he can be overruled by the legislature or the supreme court at any time. And of course, in the legislature, any one citizen can only vote for a tiny fraction ... but because every citizen votes for the president, they feel they have some semblance of control over the system. If the desire is to turn the EU into a federal system like the US, then you need EU-wide elections where every citizen has the same set of choices. That will make them feel like they have a stake in the government. It would be a release. At that point the conversation would change from do I leave or do I stay, to how do I empower the guy I voted for.